OT (happy, cohen?): gun illiterate

Ever since I've left MFW I've been turning slowly but inexorably into a
Wacko Survivalist. It's come to this: I'm thinking about getting a gun.

There are lots of reasons I'd like a handgun: target practice would be
fun, and can't beat the portability. But I'm not going to get one while
I have children in the house and that's that. My youngest is only
seven, so I'm tabling that discussion for a dozen years or so.

But I'm thinking about getting a shotgun. Something scary looking,
something that would disable in broad brush sorts of ways if I aimed it
at knees, something that I could use as a club (or my arnis-loving
husband could use as a baton) if ammo were gone. Something I could MAKE
ammo for, in the post-apocalytpic world I'm imaging being prepared for.

I know next to nothing about shotguns. I've never even fired one. I'd
plan on learning, but right now I'm a total ignoramus. So advise me,
please.

What do you think?

Dally

Dally wrote:
> <snip> I've been turning slowly but inexorably into a
> Wacko <snip>

Oooh. Big news flash.

> Something I could MAKE ammo for, in the post-
> apocalytpic world I'm imaging being prepared for.

Don't bother. I'm guessing that Korean nukes would probably be wildly
off target. What's meant for D.C. would undoubtedly land in your back
yard. And, yeah, I suspect that will take care of your problem neatly.

> <snip> right now I'm a total ignoramus.

Snipping judiciously is just hella fun!

[...]

> Dally

--
Curt

"Dally" <Dally@myself.com> wrote in message
news:4palg1FgtggnU1@individual.net...
> Ever since I've left MFW I've been turning slowly but inexorably into a
> Wacko Survivalist. It's come to this: I'm thinking about getting a gun.
>
> There are lots of reasons I'd like a handgun: target practice would be
> fun, and can't beat the portability. But I'm not going to get one while I
> have children in the house and that's that. My youngest is only seven, so
> I'm tabling that discussion for a dozen years or so.
>
> But I'm thinking about getting a shotgun. Something scary looking,
> something that would disable in broad brush sorts of ways if I aimed it at
> knees, something that I could use as a club (or my arnis-loving husband
> could use as a baton) if ammo were gone. Something I could MAKE ammo for,
> in the post-apocalytpic world I'm imaging being prepared for.
>
> I know next to nothing about shotguns. I've never even fired one. I'd
> plan on learning, but right now I'm a total ignoramus. So advise me,
> please.
>
> What do you think?
>

Handguns can be secured in a safe or on your person. For self defense
purposes, you can not beat their portability, concealability or ease of
pointing asd shooting in cramped spaces.

If you are thinking shotgun, think of it as a firearm. If you want a blunt
object, think baseball bat. Each are poor subsitutes for the other.

As far as shotguns go, the most popular is a pump action 12 gauge. But this
is a little harsh for some folks. Many women prefer something a little
smaller, like a 10 gauge. But ammo and weapons are very restricted in this
smaller size. Maybe check out some recoil reduced ammo for the 12 gauge.

But it doesn't matter what you buy if you don't train for it. And getting
good training on a shotgun is much harder than getting the training for a
handgun.

Think demand and function in terms of training. While you are spouting those
good politically correct slogans, they may not match what is suitable in
terms of training or practicality.

And this myth of a leg shot will get you killed faster than anything you can
do. If you are not prepared to take a human life when necessary, don't
bother to get a gun. You will just ending up arming your attacker.

If you want the most accurate firearm available with the minimal amount of
training, think pistol caliber carbine. There aren't many of them out there.
And most of them will cost far more than a shotgun. But they are truly
point and shoot weapons. And they are much easier on the shoulder.

But the cost effective ones all use pistol magazines. So they essentially
become a longer, shoulder stabilized version of the handgun. Keltec has
some good ones like this. And almost evybody who buys this already has the
matching handgun.

http://www.kel-tec.com/sub2000.html

I hope you come up with something that meets your needs. Just remember, if
you pursue this in any kind of politically correct manner, it could cost you
big time later. Self defense and firearms are serious matters. It would
pay to pursue this in a rational manner. You life and the wefare of your
family are far more important than political slogans.

Dally,

I screwed up on the previous post. I meant to say 20 gauge. I said ten gauge
which is much bigger and has a super recoil and is not very common.

So I was referring to a twenty gauge shotgun.

Sorry about that.

Lee

Lee Michaels wrote:

> Dally,
>
> I screwed up on the previous post. I meant to say 20 gauge. I said ten gauge
> which is much bigger and has a super recoil and is not very common.
>
> So I was referring to a twenty gauge shotgun.
>
> Sorry about that.
>
> Lee

Sure, sure, you're just trying to break my Pinko Shoulder. ;-)

Dally

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 19:23:40 -0400, Dally <Dally@myself.com> wrote:

>Ever since I've left MFW I've been turning slowly but inexorably into a
>Wacko Survivalist. It's come to this: I'm thinking about getting a gun.
>
>There are lots of reasons I'd like a handgun: target practice would be
>fun, and can't beat the portability. But I'm not going to get one while
>I have children in the house and that's that. My youngest is only
>seven, so I'm tabling that discussion for a dozen years or so.
>
>But I'm thinking about getting a shotgun. Something scary looking,
>something that would disable in broad brush sorts of ways if I aimed it
>at knees, something that I could use as a club (or my arnis-loving
>husband could use as a baton) if ammo were gone. Something I could MAKE
>ammo for, in the post-apocalytpic world I'm imaging being prepared for.
>
>I know next to nothing about shotguns. I've never even fired one. I'd
>plan on learning, but right now I'm a total ignoramus. So advise me,
>please.
>
>What do you think?
>
>Dally

Well for starters I think the whole gun with a kid thing is over
rated. My dad had a shotgun his whole life as did his father. I
always knew the difference between a real gun and a fake one. I think
parents and kids who play with guns are just stupid. Those the ones
who end up getting shot. Guns are not toys and the kid needs to
understand that.

As for the shotgun. You can and should make your own bullets. They
are much cheaper that way and it isn't too hard to do. You just stick
the bullet on loader and add the ingredients. There are different
size pellets and such which will give you a different powered shot. I
think buck shot uses lead pellets which does more damage but the
environmentalist complain about the lead. The guns come in different
gauges and I think the lower ones are more powerful. My father used
the 12 gauge but you might want something lighter. When you shoot the
pellets spread out so the target needs to be in a specific range to do
the most damage. If it is too far away then there won't be any power
left in the shot. To shoot long distances you would need a rifle.
Some of the guns may autoload the next bullet but the ones I am
familiar with you have to pump the gun to load the next one. And you
usually don't have more than a couple bullets.

But now here is the deal breaker for you. Shot guns kick. And if you
flinch before they kick that gives the gun a running start before it
slams into your shoulder. They sell little pad things but that isn't
going to help all that much. You need to hold the gun flush with the
shoulder and don't flinch. I have seen some major black and blue
shoulders when this isn't done right.

To practice they sell clay pigeons which you use a device to sling
them out into the air like Frisbees. The term is called skeet
shooting and it is pretty fun. I went shooting with my dad once and
he hit 24 out of 26 throwing up 2 and a time. I only got two or three
which basically means I suck.

Lee Michaels wrote:
> "Dally" wrote
> > Ever since I've left MFW I've been turning slowly but inexorably into a
> > Wacko Survivalist. It's come to this: I'm thinking about getting a gun.
> >
> > There are lots of reasons I'd like a handgun: target practice would be
> > fun, and can't beat the portability. But I'm not going to get one while I
> > have children in the house and that's that. My youngest is only seven, so
> > I'm tabling that discussion for a dozen years or so.
> >
> > But I'm thinking about getting a shotgun. Something scary looking,
> > something that would disable in broad brush sorts of ways if I aimed it at
> > knees, something that I could use as a club (or my arnis-loving husband
> > could use as a baton) if ammo were gone. Something I could MAKE ammo for,
> > in the post-apocalytpic world I'm imaging being prepared for.
> >
> > I know next to nothing about shotguns. I've never even fired one. I'd
> > plan on learning, but right now I'm a total ignoramus. So advise me,
> > please.
> >
> > What do you think?
>
> Handguns can be secured in a safe or on your person. For self defense
> purposes, you can not beat their portability, concealability or ease of
> pointing asd shooting in cramped spaces.
>
> If you are thinking shotgun, think of it as a firearm. If you want a blunt
> object, think baseball bat. Each are poor subsitutes for the other.
>
> As far as shotguns go, the most popular is a pump action 12 gauge. But this
> is a little harsh for some folks. Many women prefer something a little
> smaller, like a 10 gauge. But ammo and weapons are very restricted in this
> smaller size. Maybe check out some recoil reduced ammo for the 12 gauge.

She looks stockier than me, iirc, and a 12 gauge was nothing when I
fired one in the Navy.

> But it doesn't matter what you buy if you don't train for it. And getting
> good training on a shotgun is much harder than getting the training for a
> handgun.

Wtf? She can't set up a few hay bales?

> Think demand and function in terms of training. While you are spouting those
> good politically correct slogans,

And just what the hell are you talking about here? WHAT politically
correct slogans? She offered nothing of the kind, imo. Whose post were
you reading?

> they may not match what is suitable in terms of training or practicality.
>
> And this myth of a leg shot will get you killed faster than anything you can
> do. If you are not prepared to take a human life when necessary, don't
> bother to get a gun. You will just ending up arming your attacker.

Ha!

Have you seen what happens when someone's arm, shoulder, shin, etc. are
hit by a shotgun blast? One of my bajillion jobs was as a proofreader
of medical journals. Close-range shotgun blasts are a thing of absolute
wonder and amazement. Looks like someone took a bite out of the people
whose images I saw. I seriously doubt any of them were thinking what a
great opportunity they had at being armed by their intended victim. No.


"Oh, wow! Like that used to be a ball-and-socket joint and now it's...
gone. Weird. Hey, gimme your weapon now. Lee Michaels promised that you
will just ending up arming your attacker, so just hand it over, pal.
That and a Band-Aid, please. Um, a BIG one."

> <snip> Self defense and firearms are serious matters. It would
> pay to pursue this in a rational manner. You life and the wefare
> of your family are far more important than political slogans.

I gave her the dirt, but *you* apparently didn't even read her post.
How, specifically, did she not approach the subject in a serious
manner? And, again, what political slogans? Plus, how was she
irrational?

--
Curt

Dnia 2006-10-13 Dally napisa³(a):
> Ever since I've left MFW I've been turning slowly but inexorably into a
> Wacko Survivalist. It's come to this: I'm thinking about getting a gun.
>
> There are lots of reasons I'd like a handgun: target practice would be
> fun, and can't beat the portability.

Have you considered darts?

> But I'm not going to get one while
> I have children in the house and that's that. My youngest is only
> seven, so I'm tabling that discussion for a dozen years or so.
>
> But I'm thinking about getting a shotgun. Something scary looking,
> something that would disable in broad brush sorts of ways if I aimed it
> at knees, something that I could use as a club (or my arnis-loving
> husband could use as a baton) if ammo were gone. Something I could MAKE
> ammo for, in the post-apocalytpic world I'm imaging being prepared for.

Bows are good but the downside is that you'll still need apocalyptic
string, so I think atlatl is better. You could even fix your darts on
it...

> I know next to nothing about shotguns. I've never even fired one. I'd
> plan on learning, but right now I'm a total ignoramus. So advise me,
> please.

Learn to weave. You could weave a string for a bow. Beats the living
hell out of shotgun with no ammo.

--
Andrzej Rosa

"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>Dally,
>
>I screwed up on the previous post. I meant to say 20 gauge. I said ten gauge
>which is much bigger and has a super recoil and is not very common.

I almost corrected you, but I figured I would read on, knowing you
would probably correct yourself.

Sporting 10 gauges are long-range goose guns.

The only martial 10 gauge I ever saw was the Ithaca Roadblocker.

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 19:49:26 -0400, "Lee Michaels"
<leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote:

>Handguns can be secured in a safe or on your person. For self defense
>purposes, you can not beat their portability, concealability or ease of
>pointing asd shooting in cramped spaces.

I forgot to mention gun laws when I made my post. These vary from
state to state but if you are looking for a weapon to grab in a pinch
a shotgun may still have restrictions. My state says they must have a
trigger lock and the key and ammo cannot be nearby. And if someone
breaks into my house and shoots my girlfriend than you can be tried
for murder. Such a wonderful place I live in. If that ever happens
to my father my might just go shooting some politicians.

"Dally" <Dally@myself.com> wrote in message
news:4palg1FgtggnU1@individual.net...
> Ever since I've left MFW I've been turning slowly but inexorably into a
> Wacko Survivalist. It's come to this: I'm thinking about getting a gun.
>
> There are lots of reasons I'd like a handgun: target practice would be
> fun, and can't beat the portability. But I'm not going to get one while I
> have children in the house and that's that. My youngest is only seven, so
> I'm tabling that discussion for a dozen years or so.
>
> But I'm thinking about getting a shotgun. Something scary looking,
> something that would disable in broad brush sorts of ways if I aimed it at
> knees, something that I could use as a club (or my arnis-loving husband
> could use as a baton) if ammo were gone. Something I could MAKE ammo for,
> in the post-apocalytpic world I'm imaging being prepared for.
>
> I know next to nothing about shotguns. I've never even fired one. I'd
> plan on learning, but right now I'm a total ignoramus. So advise me,
> please.
>
> What do you think?
>
Personally I like a 12 ga. cut down to 18 1/4" (lest a mis-measurement puts
you in a Ruby Ridge situation). Shot size ranges from #12 (dust shot) to 000
buckshot. #1 buck may be a good choice for self defense - you have to think
about killing people sleeping in the next room, though.

"Dally" <Dally@myself.com> wrote in message
news:4palg1FgtggnU1@individual.net...
> Ever since I've left MFW I've been turning slowly but inexorably into a
> Wacko Survivalist. It's come to this: I'm thinking about getting a gun.
>
> There are lots of reasons I'd like a handgun: target practice would be
> fun, and can't beat the portability. But I'm not going to get one while I
> have children in the house and that's that. My youngest is only seven, so
> I'm tabling that discussion for a dozen years or so.
>
> But I'm thinking about getting a shotgun. Something scary looking,
> something that would disable in broad brush sorts of ways if I aimed it at
> knees, something that I could use as a club (or my arnis-loving husband
> could use as a baton) if ammo were gone. Something I could MAKE ammo for,
> in the post-apocalytpic world I'm imaging being prepared for.
>
> I know next to nothing about shotguns. I've never even fired one. I'd
> plan on learning, but right now I'm a total ignoramus. So advise me,
> please.

I pretty much agree with what Lee told you. And please ignore the utter
nonsense that Shute posted.

My specific recommendation for you is a Smith & Wesson or a Taurus 4 inch
barrelled .357 magnum revolver, loaded with .38 special 158 grain lead
semiwadcutter hollowpoints (LSWHP), with a pair of Crimson Trace laser sight
grips and a Sure Fire flashlight. Keep it, loaded, in a handgun safe from
www.handgunsafe.com. Buy "In The Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob, on
Amazon, and read it. Twice. Contact Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute in New
Hampshire and go take the LFI 1 course.

David

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 19:23:40 -0400, Dally <Dally@myself.com> wrote in
misc.fitness.weights:

>Ever since I've left MFW I've been turning slowly but inexorably into a
>Wacko Survivalist. It's come to this: I'm thinking about getting a gun.

Good for you.

>
>There are lots of reasons I'd like a handgun: target practice would be
>fun, and can't beat the portability. But I'm not going to get one while
>I have children in the house and that's that. My youngest is only
>seven, so I'm tabling that discussion for a dozen years or so.

Okay. We'll come back to this.

>
>But I'm thinking about getting a shotgun. Something scary looking,
>something that would disable in broad brush sorts of ways if I aimed it
>at knees, something that I could use as a club (or my arnis-loving
>husband could use as a baton) if ammo were gone. Something I could MAKE
>ammo for, in the post-apocalytpic world I'm imaging being prepared for.

If I were to only own one firearm, it would be a 12 gauge shotgun. You
can kill big game out to 150 yards or so with slugs and all sorts of
fast moving critters with various sizes of shotshells. The 12 gauge
is heavier than the 20 which can reduce the amount of recoil,
depending on the load (slugs and magnum waterfowl loads kick very
sharply in a 20 gauge). They also make excellent personal protection
weapons.

>
>I know next to nothing about shotguns. I've never even fired one. I'd
>plan on learning, but right now I'm a total ignoramus. So advise me,
>please.
>
>What do you think?

Buy a 12 gauge shotgun. Start with the inexpensive Mossberg 500 or
better yet, 835 Ultimag ( you can shoot the 3 1/2 inch magnums with
that one). One of the more than half dozen shotguns I own is the very
500 and it has been extremely reliable with thousands of rounds
through it over the years. You can buy different barrels for both of
those too.

Shoot that for a couple of years and in no time you'll rid yourself of
that misguided notion you can't own a handgun with a child in the
house. Then you can start your collection because you'll soon realize
that you'll want to own a number of "specialists". This is a good
thing.

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 01:28:18 GMT, "David Cohen"
<sammiesdad@earthlink.net> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>
>"Dally" <Dally@myself.com> wrote in message
>news:4palg1FgtggnU1@individual.net...
>> Ever since I've left MFW I've been turning slowly but inexorably into a
>> Wacko Survivalist. It's come to this: I'm thinking about getting a gun.
>>
>> There are lots of reasons I'd like a handgun: target practice would be
>> fun, and can't beat the portability. But I'm not going to get one while I
>> have children in the house and that's that. My youngest is only seven, so
>> I'm tabling that discussion for a dozen years or so.
>>
>> But I'm thinking about getting a shotgun. Something scary looking,
>> something that would disable in broad brush sorts of ways if I aimed it at
>> knees, something that I could use as a club (or my arnis-loving husband
>> could use as a baton) if ammo were gone. Something I could MAKE ammo for,
>> in the post-apocalytpic world I'm imaging being prepared for.
>>
>> I know next to nothing about shotguns. I've never even fired one. I'd
>> plan on learning, but right now I'm a total ignoramus. So advise me,
>> please.
>
>I pretty much agree with what Lee told you. And please ignore the utter
>nonsense that Shute posted.

Lee's wrong about the 12 gauge. It kicks less than a 20 in most
brands of shotguns. Shute should note that there is no such thing as
a bullet for a shotgun nor should one ever need to reload for a
shotgun because ammo is so damned cheap, it isn't worth the time and
effort to reload. Nor would one see much improvement in accuracy with
reloaded shotshells.

>
>My specific recommendation for you is a Smith & Wesson or a Taurus 4 inch
>barrelled .357 magnum revolver, loaded with .38 special 158 grain lead
>semiwadcutter hollowpoints (LSWHP), with a pair of Crimson Trace laser sight
>grips and a Sure Fire flashlight. Keep it, loaded, in a handgun safe from
>www.handgunsafe.com. Buy "In The Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob, on
>Amazon, and read it. Twice. Contact Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute in New
>Hampshire and go take the LFI 1 course.
>
Good choices but one should always start their gun collection with a
12 gauge shotgun.

In article <4palg1FgtggnU1@individual.net>, Dally <Dally@myself.com>
wrote:

> Ever since I've left MFW I've been turning slowly but inexorably into a
> Wacko Survivalist. It's come to this: I'm thinking about getting a gun.
>
> There are lots of reasons I'd like a handgun: target practice would be
> fun, and can't beat the portability. But I'm not going to get one while
> I have children in the house and that's that. My youngest is only
> seven, so I'm tabling that discussion for a dozen years or so.
>
> But I'm thinking about getting a shotgun. Something scary looking,
> something that would disable in broad brush sorts of ways if I aimed it
> at knees, something that I could use as a club (or my arnis-loving
> husband could use as a baton) if ammo were gone. Something I could MAKE
> ammo for, in the post-apocalytpic world I'm imaging being prepared for.
>
> I know next to nothing about shotguns. I've never even fired one. I'd
> plan on learning, but right now I'm a total ignoramus. So advise me,
> please.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Dally

What makes you think a shotgun around children is any safer than a
handgun? You will still have to take childproofing precautions either
way.

I'm still in the process of learning about shotguns myself and recently
purchased a nice little short barreled Mossberg. I'm fixin' to get some
hands on, personal training with it.

If you are serious about this, I'd strongly suggest you do the same!
Contact a local gun club and get involved. You can also often contact
your local Sherrif's office to find out about local gun trainers.

Meanwhile, go to Amazon.com and build a small library on the subject
like I did. The first book I'd suggest is "In the Gravest Extreme" by
Masaad Ayoob. One of his other books is "The Truth about Self Defense".
Also STRONGLY suggested reading! I just finished it last night.
Suarez "The Tactical Shotgun" is also not bad. I'm just starting in on
that one.

There is no substitute for local hands on training if you are not
familiar with guns. There is nothing more dangerous than a gun in the
hands of someone totally unfamiliar with them!

At least I grew up in a "gun" household but I grew up mainly with
rifles. ;-) I'm still teaching myself about handguns (and now shotguns)
but at least I was familiar with all the basics.

BTW, the BEST way to childproof a gun is to childproof your children! 7
is old enough to start learning about guns and gun safety.

Your kids are far less likely to do something stupid with one out of
sheer curiosity if they have no reason to be curious. I was 4 when I
shot my first soup can with a crossman air rifle (BB gun) and started
bunny hunting with my father when I was 6. At that point, I'd graduated
to a .22. My 16th birthday gift was a beautiful Winchester .308 hunting
rifle.

I still have it. :-)

Good luck Dally! Oh, and do consider joining rec.guns but you will need
to post there with a real e-mail address. It's why I picked up the gmail
address. I use it now exclusively for usenet.

Good luck and be careful!!!
--
Peace, Om

Remove extra . to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

"David Cohen" stated wisely
>
> I pretty much agree with what Lee told you.

Has hell froze over?? Did Cohen actually AGREE with me??

<pinching myself>

<paranoidly peeking out my window>


> My specific recommendation for you is a Smith & Wesson or a Taurus 4 inch
> barrelled .357 magnum revolver, loaded with .38 special 158 grain lead
> semiwadcutter hollowpoints (LSWHP), with a pair of Crimson Trace laser
> sight grips and a Sure Fire flashlight. Keep it, loaded, in a handgun safe
> from www.handgunsafe.com. Buy "In The Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob, on
> Amazon, and read it. Twice. Contact Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute in New
> Hampshire and go take the LFI 1 course.
>
I agree with everything stated above. A good revolver almost always goes
bang when you pull the trigger. And is a lot less complicated for beginners.

The important thing here is to LEARN ABOUT GUNS!! Revolvers are much less
of a learning curve. If you are an individual with little experience or
knowledge, start with something reasonable. Something that mere mortals can
learn. Don't bite off more than you can chew initially.

"In The Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob is a classic. Read it. You will
know more then and can make better decisions. He covers a lot of the legal
ramifications of shooting that gun. This is absolutely essential
information. It would also be good to find out the particulars of the laws
in your state, locality as well.

Get some training. Learn about guns, etc. Your decicions will be more
informed then. Take a self defense course or two.

I should point out another area that you could check out as well. More
people are looking into non lethal weaons as well. They are a poor
subsitute for a gun in a dangerous situation. But often a situation can be
resolved with less than lethal means. Which is a very good thing, both legal
and otherwise. Some folks have a second shotgun filled with less than lethal
ammo. And some folks actually put a low power load as the first two shot in
their shotgun.

Cold Steel has these weapons for sale.

http://www.coldsteel.com/95sseries.html

http://www.coldsteel.com/92bs.html

You need to think in terms of "reasonable force". Do what is needed, but no
more. A shooting is justified only under extreme circumstances.

It would be wise to also plan for circumstances short of this extreme point.
having a range of protective measures is prudent and shows that you are not
a cowboy out to shoot somebody. Which is why many firearms school provide
video tapes of the classes that you attend. That way you can argue that you
just did what you were trained to do.

In article <go90j2h8m83qfnnot6fc9u77elqr69m2i0@4ax.com>,
Shute <Shute@nowhere.com> wrote:

> I
> think buck shot uses lead pellets which does more damage but the
> environmentalist complain about the lead.

I'd suggest you read up on that... ;-)
Shot comes in more varieties now. I'd have to re-check my ballistics
manual but I think that the tungsten alloy ones are considered to be the
better substitute rather than steel shot.

Environmental regulations now require duck hunters to NOT use lead shot.
--
Peace, Om

Remove extra . to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

In article <JtGdnbpAhL8Qpq3YnZ2dnUVZ_sqdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"ranieri" <not now> wrote:

> "Dally" <Dally@myself.com> wrote in message
> news:4palg1FgtggnU1@individual.net...
> > Ever since I've left MFW I've been turning slowly but inexorably into a
> > Wacko Survivalist. It's come to this: I'm thinking about getting a gun.
> >
> > There are lots of reasons I'd like a handgun: target practice would be
> > fun, and can't beat the portability. But I'm not going to get one while I
> > have children in the house and that's that. My youngest is only seven, so
> > I'm tabling that discussion for a dozen years or so.
> >
> > But I'm thinking about getting a shotgun. Something scary looking,
> > something that would disable in broad brush sorts of ways if I aimed it at
> > knees, something that I could use as a club (or my arnis-loving husband
> > could use as a baton) if ammo were gone. Something I could MAKE ammo for,
> > in the post-apocalytpic world I'm imaging being prepared for.
> >
> > I know next to nothing about shotguns. I've never even fired one. I'd
> > plan on learning, but right now I'm a total ignoramus. So advise me,
> > please.
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> Personally I like a 12 ga. cut down to 18 1/4" (lest a mis-measurement puts
> you in a Ruby Ridge situation). Shot size ranges from #12 (dust shot) to 000
> buckshot. #1 buck may be a good choice for self defense - you have to think
> about killing people sleeping in the next room, though.

That's why I'm planning to load with #3 at the largest... #4 is
considered to be the minimal effective size according to most sources.

While a lot of people say 0 or 00 buck, both of those can penetrate
walls..... which is why I was interested in a shotgun in the first place.
My other home defense gun is a .357.
--
Peace, Om

Remove extra . to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

"ranieri" <not now> wrote:
>"Dally" <Dally@myself.com> wrote:
>> Ever since I've left MFW I've been turning slowly but inexorably into a
>> Wacko Survivalist. It's come to this: I'm thinking about getting a gun.
>>
>> There are lots of reasons I'd like a handgun: target practice would be
>> fun, and can't beat the portability. But I'm not going to get one while I
>> have children in the house and that's that. My youngest is only seven, so
>> I'm tabling that discussion for a dozen years or so.
>>
>> But I'm thinking about getting a shotgun. Something scary looking,
>> something that would disable in broad brush sorts of ways if I aimed it at
>> knees, something that I could use as a club (or my arnis-loving husband
>> could use as a baton) if ammo were gone. Something I could MAKE ammo for,
>> in the post-apocalytpic world I'm imaging being prepared for.
>>
>> I know next to nothing about shotguns. I've never even fired one. I'd
>> plan on learning, but right now I'm a total ignoramus. So advise me,
>> please.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
> Personally I like a 12 ga. cut down to 18 1/4" (lest a mis-measurement puts
>you in a Ruby Ridge situation).

Twenty inches allows for an eight-shot mag, while a folding
pistol-grip stock can make it more compact:

http://www.rustyiron.net/m590.jpg

In article <omp.omelet-C1DB80.21111313102006@news.giganews.com>,
OmManiPadmeOmelet <omp.omelet@gmail.com> wrote:

> The first book I'd suggest is "In the Gravest Extreme" by
> Masaad Ayoob. One of his other books is "The Truth about Self Defense".

Answering my own post, sorry.
That other book title is "The Truth about Self Protection".

Oops! ;-p
--
Peace, Om

Remove extra . to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

OmManiPadmeOmelet wrote:

> What makes you think a shotgun around children is any safer than a
> handgun? You will still have to take childproofing precautions either
> way.

I grew up in a household with guns, too, and my well-trained brothers
did a variety of stupid shit with guns because they were dumb-as-dirt
adolescent males with no impulse control. I've seen up close how badly
guns get abused by people who OUGHT to know better. I'd like to believe
my kids would know better, and I *do* believe I could train them, but I
still doubt they'd always do what they're supposed to do.

And then there's personal tragedy: one of my cousins shot and killed his
brother with a handgun when the brother was fooling around the house one
night pretending to be an intruder. Or at least, that's what the
shooter claimed.

Handguns are small enough to be secreted about a kid. I'm not going to
chance it. Period. Not until they get past adolesence and their inate
IQ fires back up.

So Cohen's advice, while probably absolutely wonderful, is getting
tabled for a dozen years. Sorry.

> I'm still in the process of learning about shotguns myself and recently
> purchased a nice little short barreled Mossberg. I'm fixin' to get some
> hands on, personal training with it.

I like the skeet idea. I've always thought target shooting was fun.

> If you are serious about this, I'd strongly suggest you do the same!
> Contact a local gun club and get involved. You can also often contact
> your local Sherrif's office to find out about local gun trainers.

We're connected that way. I've shot rifles and handguns (though not
lately). I'm trying to remember if the kick I recall feeling as a kid
was from a shotgun or not, but I'm pretty sure it was just a rifle. We
always had plenty of guns lying about for shooting at cans or targets
when I was a farm-girl growing up.

> Meanwhile, go to Amazon.com and build a small library on the subject
> like I did. The first book I'd suggest is "In the Gravest Extreme" by
> Masaad Ayoob. One of his other books is "The Truth about Self Defense".
> Also STRONGLY suggested reading! I just finished it last night.
> Suarez "The Tactical Shotgun" is also not bad. I'm just starting in on
> that one.

Thanks to both (all) of you for ideas. I've just bought "Nuclear War
Survival Skills" and am reading that right now. My children aren't sure
whether to be freaked or amused by my new hobby.

> There is no substitute for local hands on training if you are not
> familiar with guns. There is nothing more dangerous than a gun in the
> hands of someone totally unfamiliar with them!
>
> At least I grew up in a "gun" household but I grew up mainly with
> rifles. ;-) I'm still teaching myself about handguns (and now shotguns)
> but at least I was familiar with all the basics.
>
> BTW, the BEST way to childproof a gun is to childproof your children! 7
> is old enough to start learning about guns and gun safety.

I don't mind teaching them to shoot. My teen-aged son is going off
hunting with his Grandpa next fall. I just object to them having access
to a gun. I've been so resolute on this subject that it's sort of
shocking that I'm even considering a long gun.

> Your kids are far less likely to do something stupid with one out of
> sheer curiosity if they have no reason to be curious. I was 4 when I
> shot my first soup can with a crossman air rifle (BB gun) and started
> bunny hunting with my father when I was 6. At that point, I'd graduated
> to a .22. My 16th birthday gift was a beautiful Winchester .308 hunting
> rifle.
>
> I still have it. :-)

Look, I'd rather not argue this. I'm sure lots of kids don't shoot out
their grandparent's windows. But evidence suggest that SOMEONE is
shooting out the halogen street lights and picking off squirrels (not
that there's anything wrong with that). I just don't have sufficient
faith in my parenting abilities to feel comfortable that MY boys
wouldn't be the ones doing the same stupid shit their uncles did.

> Good luck Dally! Oh, and do consider joining rec.guns but you will need
> to post there with a real e-mail address. It's why I picked up the gmail
> address. I use it now exclusively for usenet.

This is a real email address. (I even check it once every two months or
so!)

> Good luck and be careful!!!

Thanks, Om.

Dally

David Cohen wrote:

> "Dally" <Dally@myself.com> wrote in message
> news:4palg1FgtggnU1@individual.net...
>
>>Ever since I've left MFW I've been turning slowly but inexorably into a
>>Wacko Survivalist. It's come to this: I'm thinking about getting a gun.
>>
>>There are lots of reasons I'd like a handgun: target practice would be
>>fun, and can't beat the portability. But I'm not going to get one while I
>>have children in the house and that's that. My youngest is only seven, so
>>I'm tabling that discussion for a dozen years or so.
>>
>>But I'm thinking about getting a shotgun. Something scary looking,
>>something that would disable in broad brush sorts of ways if I aimed it at
>>knees, something that I could use as a club (or my arnis-loving husband
>>could use as a baton) if ammo were gone. Something I could MAKE ammo for,
>>in the post-apocalytpic world I'm imaging being prepared for.
>>
>>I know next to nothing about shotguns. I've never even fired one. I'd
>>plan on learning, but right now I'm a total ignoramus. So advise me,
>>please.
>
>
> I pretty much agree with what Lee told you. And please ignore the utter
> nonsense that Shute posted.
>
> My specific recommendation for you is a Smith & Wesson or a Taurus 4 inch
> barrelled .357 magnum revolver, loaded with .38 special 158 grain lead
> semiwadcutter hollowpoints (LSWHP), with a pair of Crimson Trace laser sight
> grips and a Sure Fire flashlight. Keep it, loaded, in a handgun safe from
> www.handgunsafe.com.

I'll put it on my "To Do" list. For 2017.

> Buy "In The Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob, on
> Amazon, and read it. Twice. Contact Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute in New
> Hampshire and go take the LFI 1 course.

Okay, I'll look into this. Thanks.

Dally

"John Hanson" <jhanson@northernlinks.com> wrote
> "David Cohen" <sammiesdad@earthlink.net> wrote
>>"Dally" <Dally@myself.com> wrote in message
>>news:4palg1FgtggnU1@individual.net...
>>> Ever since I've left MFW I've been turning slowly but inexorably into a
>>> Wacko Survivalist. It's come to this: I'm thinking about getting a gun.
>>>
>>> There are lots of reasons I'd like a handgun: target practice would be
>>> fun, and can't beat the portability. But I'm not going to get one while
>>> I
>>> have children in the house and that's that. My youngest is only seven,
>>> so
>>> I'm tabling that discussion for a dozen years or so.
>>>
>>> But I'm thinking about getting a shotgun. Something scary looking,
>>> something that would disable in broad brush sorts of ways if I aimed it
>>> at
>>> knees, something that I could use as a club (or my arnis-loving husband
>>> could use as a baton) if ammo were gone. Something I could MAKE ammo
>>> for,
>>> in the post-apocalytpic world I'm imaging being prepared for.
>>>
>>> I know next to nothing about shotguns. I've never even fired one. I'd
>>> plan on learning, but right now I'm a total ignoramus. So advise me,
>>> please.
>>
>>I pretty much agree with what Lee told you. And please ignore the utter
>>nonsense that Shute posted.
>
> Lee's wrong about the 12 gauge. It kicks less than a 20 in most
> brands of shotguns. Shute should note that there is no such thing as
> a bullet for a shotgun nor should one ever need to reload for a
> shotgun because ammo is so damned cheap, it isn't worth the time and
> effort to reload. Nor would one see much improvement in accuracy with
> reloaded shotshells.
>
>>My specific recommendation for you is a Smith & Wesson or a Taurus 4 inch
>>barrelled .357 magnum revolver, loaded with .38 special 158 grain lead
>>semiwadcutter hollowpoints (LSWHP), with a pair of Crimson Trace laser
>>sight
>>grips and a Sure Fire flashlight. Keep it, loaded, in a handgun safe from
>>www.handgunsafe.com. Buy "In The Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob, on
>>Amazon, and read it. Twice. Contact Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute in New
>>Hampshire and go take the LFI 1 course.
>>
> Good choices but one should always start their gun collection with a
> 12 gauge shotgun.

We've discussed it before. We'll have to agree to disagree.

'Course, I solved the issue by owned all them there types of guns

David

"Dally" <Dally@myself.com> wrote in message
news:4pb1b7Fi65hrU1@individual.net...

> Handguns are small enough to be secreted about a kid. I'm not going to
> chance it. Period. Not until they get past adolesence and their inate IQ
> fires back up.
>
> So Cohen's advice, while probably absolutely wonderful, is getting tabled
> for a dozen years. Sorry.

Don't be. It's your life and your kids' lives, so, it truly has to be your
decision.

I would still highly recommend the book and the course I mentioned.

> Thanks to both (all) of you for ideas. I've just bought "Nuclear War
> Survival Skills" and am reading that right now. My children aren't sure
> whether to be freaked or amused by my new hobby.

Oh, jeez, that is one of the two classics in the field. The other is Bruce
Clayton's "Life After Doomsday".

But you're a little late to the table. I was a full fledged survivalist back
in the '80s, when Global Thermonuclear War was an ever-present real
possibility, not a video game. Those preparations you are reading about I
actually did.

Since the fall of the Soviet Union (thank you, Mr Reagan), the chances of
the doomsday scenario global nuclear war has greatly diminished. The threat
is now terrorist nukes or rogue nation nukes. While what I learned back in
the '80s would certainly help if a nuke went off here or nearby or upwind,
it's just not the same.

David

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 21:17:45 -0500, OmManiPadmeOmelet
<omp.omelet@gmail.com> wrote:

>In article <go90j2h8m83qfnnot6fc9u77elqr69m2i0@4ax.com>,
> Shute <Shute@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> I
>> think buck shot uses lead pellets which does more damage but the
>> environmentalist complain about the lead.
>
>I'd suggest you read up on that... ;-)
>Shot comes in more varieties now. I'd have to re-check my ballistics
>manual but I think that the tungsten alloy ones are considered to be the
>better substitute rather than steel shot.
>
>Environmental regulations now require duck hunters to NOT use lead shot.

Well most of the stuff I know about is older information. I am pretty
sure steel is useless on something like a goose and not much good on
ducks. Their skin is a quite a bit thicker than other birds.

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 21:21:11 -0500, OmManiPadmeOmelet
<omp.omelet@gmail.com> wrote:

>That's why I'm planning to load with #3 at the largest... #4 is
>considered to be the minimal effective size according to most sources.
>
>While a lot of people say 0 or 00 buck, both of those can penetrate
>walls..... which is why I was interested in a shotgun in the first place.
>My other home defense gun is a .357.

Lead pellets are softer which allow them to tear through skin easier.
I never thought about sheet rock walls being so easy to shoot through.

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 01:28:18 GMT, "David Cohen"
<sammiesdad@earthlink.net> wrote:

>I pretty much agree with what Lee told you. And please ignore the utter
>nonsense that Shute posted.

What are you talking about?

>My specific recommendation for you is a Smith & Wesson or a Taurus 4 inch
>barrelled .357 magnum revolver, loaded with .38 special 158 grain lead
>semiwadcutter hollowpoints (LSWHP), with a pair of Crimson Trace laser sight
>grips and a Sure Fire flashlight. Keep it, loaded, in a handgun safe from
>www.handgunsafe.com. Buy "In The Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob, on
>Amazon, and read it. Twice. Contact Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute in New
>Hampshire and go take the LFI 1 course.

I see now. Why don't you recommend a cannon for her. Maybe put a
moat around the yard with some crocs in it. Or better yet put out
some land mines with trip wires. And don't forget the should
rockets.

"Shute" <Shute@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news401j2h7pi7co1pn3i228epu3723a2a5o0@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 21:21:11 -0500, OmManiPadmeOmelet
> <omp.omelet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>That's why I'm planning to load with #3 at the largest... #4 is
>>considered to be the minimal effective size according to most sources.
>>
>>While a lot of people say 0 or 00 buck, both of those can penetrate
>>walls..... which is why I was interested in a shotgun in the first place.
>>My other home defense gun is a .357.
>
> Lead pellets are softer which allow them to tear through skin easier.
> I never thought about sheet rock walls being so easy to shoot through.

And now, today's "Moron or Troll" game. I'll go first. Based on all of his
posts about firearms in this thread, and the seriousness of his posts, I
vote MORON.

David

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 20:45:52 -0500, John Hanson
<jhanson@northernlinks.com> wrote:

>Lee's wrong about the 12 gauge. It kicks less than a 20 in most
>brands of shotguns. Shute should note that there is no such thing as
>a bullet for a shotgun nor should one ever need to reload for a
>shotgun because ammo is so damned cheap, it isn't worth the time and
>effort to reload. Nor would one see much improvement in accuracy with
>reloaded shotshells.

It didn't used to be cheaper but I haven't checked prices in twenty
years. I also got the impression the OP wanted to keep a large supply
of ammo as a survivalist might do. If it isn't called a bullet than
what is it called? My memory is a little rusty I guess. Oh yeah a
shell.

>Good choices but one should always start their gun collection with a
>12 gauge shotgun.

I think it is a nice easy weapon to use if you can handle the kicking.

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 06:34:22 GMT, "David Cohen"
<sammiesdad@earthlink.net> wrote:

>And now, today's "Moron or Troll" game. I'll go first. Based on all of his
>posts about firearms in this thread, and the seriousness of his posts, I
>vote MORON.

Fuck off Dickhead!!!!