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Old 12-28-2006, 06:52 AM
Will Brink
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Posts: n/a
Default OT: Myths and truths of atheism

From the LA Times:

10 myths -- and 10 truths -- about atheism
By Sam Harris, SAM HARRIS

SEVERAL POLLS indicate that the term "atheism" has acquired such an
extraordinary stigma in the United States that being an atheist is now a
perfect impediment to a career in politics (in a way that being black,
Muslim or homosexual is not). According to a recent Newsweek poll, only
37% of Americans would vote for an otherwise qualified atheist for
president.

Atheists are often imagined to be intolerant, immoral, depressed, blind to
the beauty of nature and dogmatically closed to evidence of the
supernatural.

Even John Locke, one of the great patriarchs of the Enlightenment,
believed that atheism was "not at all to be tolerated" because, he said,
"promises, covenants and oaths, which are the bonds of human societies,
can have no hold upon an atheist."

That was more than 300 years ago. But in the United States today, little
seems to have changed. A remarkable 87% of the population claims "never to
doubt" the existence of God; fewer than 10% identify themselves as
atheists ‹ and their reputation appears to be deteriorating.

Given that we know that atheists are often among the most intelligent and
scientifically literate people in any society, it seems important to
deflate the myths that prevent them from playing a larger role in our
national discourse.

1) Atheists believe that life is meaningless.

On the contrary, religious people often worry that life is meaningless and
imagine that it can only be redeemed by the promise of eternal happiness
beyond the grave. Atheists tend to be quite sure that life is precious.
Life is imbued with meaning by being really and fully lived. Our
relationships with those we love are meaningful now; they need not last
forever to be made so. Atheists tend to find this fear of meaninglessness
Š well Š meaningless.

2) Atheism is responsible for the greatest crimes in human history.

People of faith often claim that the crimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol
Pot were the inevitable product of unbelief. The problem with fascism and
communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the
problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are
dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are
indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship. Auschwitz, the
gulag and the killing fields were not examples of what happens when human
beings reject religious dogma; they are examples of political, racial and
nationalistic dogma run amok. There is no society in human history that
ever suffered because its people became too reasonable.

3) Atheism is dogmatic.

Jews, Christians and Muslims claim that their scriptures are so prescient
of humanity's needs that they could only have been written under the
direction of an omniscient deity. An atheist is simply a person who has
considered this claim, read the books and found the claim to be
ridiculous. One doesn't have to take anything on faith, or be otherwise
dogmatic, to reject unjustified religious beliefs. As the historian
Stephen Henry Roberts (1901-71) once said: "I contend that we are both
atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand
why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I
dismiss yours."

4) Atheists think everything in the universe arose by chance.

No one knows why the universe came into being. In fact, it is not entirely
clear that we can coherently speak about the "beginning" or "creation" of
the universe at all, as these ideas invoke the concept of time, and here
we are talking about the origin of space-time itself.

The notion that atheists believe that everything was created by chance is
also regularly thrown up as a criticism of Darwinian evolution. As Richard
Dawkins explains in his marvelous book, "The God Delusion," this
represents an utter misunderstanding of evolutionary theory. Although we
don't know precisely how the Earth's early chemistry begat biology, we
know that the diversity and complexity we see in the living world is not a
product of mere chance. Evolution is a combination of chance mutation and
natural selection. Darwin arrived at the phrase "natural selection" by
analogy to the "artificial selection" performed by breeders of livestock.
In both cases, selection exerts a highly non-random effect on the
development of any species.

5) Atheism has no connection to science.

Although it is possible to be a scientist and still believe in God ‹ as
some scientists seem to manage it ‹ there is no question that an
engagement with scientific thinking tends to erode, rather than support,
religious faith. Taking the U.S. population as an example: Most polls show
that about 90% of the general public believes in a personal God; yet 93%
of the members of the National Academy of Sciences do not. This suggests
that there are few modes of thinking less congenial to religious faith
than science is.

6) Atheists are arrogant.

When scientists don't know something ‹ like why the universe came into
being or how the first self-replicating molecules formed ‹ they admit it.
Pretending to know things one doesn't know is a profound liability in
science. And yet it is the life-blood of faith-based religion. One of the
monumental ironies of religious discourse can be found in the frequency
with which people of faith praise themselves for their humility, while
claiming to know facts about cosmology, chemistry and biology that no
scientist knows. When considering questions about the nature of the cosmos
and our place within it, atheists tend to draw their opinions from
science. This isn't arrogance; it is intellectual honesty.

7) Atheists are closed to spiritual experience.

There is nothing that prevents an atheist from experiencing love, ecstasy,
rapture and awe; atheists can value these experiences and seek them
regularly. What atheists don't tend to do is make unjustified (and
unjustifiable) claims about the nature of reality on the basis of such
experiences. There is no question that some Christians have transformed
their lives for the better by reading the Bible and praying to Jesus. What
does this prove? It proves that certain disciplines of attention and codes
of conduct can have a profound effect upon the human mind. Do the positive
experiences of Christians suggest that Jesus is the sole savior of
humanity? Not even remotely ‹ because Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims and even
atheists regularly have similar experiences.

There is, in fact, not a Christian on this Earth who can be certain that
Jesus even wore a beard, much less that he was born of a virgin or rose
from the dead. These are just not the sort of claims that spiritual
experience can authenticate.

8) Atheists believe that there is nothing beyond human life and human
understanding.

Atheists are free to admit the limits of human understanding in a way that
religious people are not. It is obvious that we do not fully understand
the universe; but it is even more obvious that neither the Bible nor the
Koran reflects our best understanding of it. We do not know whether there
is complex life elsewhere in the cosmos, but there might be. If there is,
such beings could have developed an understanding of nature's laws that
vastly exceeds our own. Atheists can freely entertain such possibilities.
They also can admit that if brilliant extraterrestrials exist, the
contents of the Bible and the Koran will be even less impressive to them
than they are to human atheists.

From the atheist point of view, the world's religions utterly trivialize
the real beauty and immensity of the universe. One doesn't have to accept
anything on insufficient evidence to make such an observation.

9) Atheists ignore the fact that religion is extremely beneficial to society.

Those who emphasize the good effects of religion never seem to realize
that such effects fail to demonstrate the truth of any religious doctrine.
This is why we have terms such as "wishful thinking" and "self-deception."
There is a profound distinction between a consoling delusion and the
truth.

In any case, the good effects of religion can surely be disputed. In most
cases, it seems that religion gives people bad reasons to behave well,
when good reasons are actually available. Ask yourself, which is more
moral, helping the poor out of concern for their suffering, or doing so
because you think the creator of the universe wants you to do it, will
reward you for doing it or will punish you for not doing it?

10) Atheism provides no basis for morality.

If a person doesn't already understand that cruelty is wrong, he won't
discover this by reading the Bible or the Koran ‹ as these books are
bursting with celebrations of cruelty, both human and divine. We do not
get our morality from religion. We decide what is good in our good books
by recourse to moral intuitions that are (at some level) hard-wired in us
and that have been refined by thousands of years of thinking about the
causes and possibilities of human happiness.

We have made considerable moral progress over the years, and we didn't
make this progress by reading the Bible or the Koran more closely. Both
books condone the practice of slavery ‹ and yet every civilized human
being now recognizes that slavery is an abomination. Whatever is good in
scripture ‹ like the golden rule ‹ can be valued for its ethical wisdom
without our believing that it was handed down to us by the creator of the
universe.

From the LA Times;

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...nion-rightrail
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  #2  
Old 12-28-2006, 06:52 AM
John Black
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OT: Myths and truths of atheism

In article <willbrink-2712061936460001@192.168.2.156>,
willbrink@comcast.net says...
> From the LA Times:
>
> 10 myths -- and 10 truths -- about atheism
> By Sam Harris, SAM HARRIS


Well done.

John Black
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-28-2006, 07:58 PM
BradandBrooks
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Myths and truths of atheism

C'mon Will... If I was to bring to light all the faults in this "reasoning",
I'd be here to 2008. You honestly can't think you are the smartest thing in
this universe, as far as you know today; see point #8, cause until it IS
proven, you, in effect, ARE God. That is laughable.

To take on the other nine would take up way too much of my valuable time. I
seriously thought you were smarter than this.

Brad

"Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:willbrink-2712061936460001@192.168.2.156...
> From the LA Times:
>
> 10 myths -- and 10 truths -- about atheism
> By Sam Harris, SAM HARRIS
>
> SEVERAL POLLS indicate that the term "atheism" has acquired such an
> extraordinary stigma in the United States that being an atheist is now a
> perfect impediment to a career in politics (in a way that being black,
> Muslim or homosexual is not). According to a recent Newsweek poll, only
> 37% of Americans would vote for an otherwise qualified atheist for
> president.
>
> Atheists are often imagined to be intolerant, immoral, depressed, blind to
> the beauty of nature and dogmatically closed to evidence of the
> supernatural.
>
> Even John Locke, one of the great patriarchs of the Enlightenment,
> believed that atheism was "not at all to be tolerated" because, he said,
> "promises, covenants and oaths, which are the bonds of human societies,
> can have no hold upon an atheist."
>
> That was more than 300 years ago. But in the United States today, little
> seems to have changed. A remarkable 87% of the population claims "never to
> doubt" the existence of God; fewer than 10% identify themselves as
> atheists ‹ and their reputation appears to be deteriorating.
>
> Given that we know that atheists are often among the most intelligent and
> scientifically literate people in any society, it seems important to
> deflate the myths that prevent them from playing a larger role in our
> national discourse.
>
> 1) Atheists believe that life is meaningless.
>
> On the contrary, religious people often worry that life is meaningless and
> imagine that it can only be redeemed by the promise of eternal happiness
> beyond the grave. Atheists tend to be quite sure that life is precious.
> Life is imbued with meaning by being really and fully lived. Our
> relationships with those we love are meaningful now; they need not last
> forever to be made so. Atheists tend to find this fear of meaninglessness
> Š well Š meaningless.
>
> 2) Atheism is responsible for the greatest crimes in human history.
>
> People of faith often claim that the crimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol
> Pot were the inevitable product of unbelief. The problem with fascism and
> communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the
> problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are
> dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are
> indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship. Auschwitz, the
> gulag and the killing fields were not examples of what happens when human
> beings reject religious dogma; they are examples of political, racial and
> nationalistic dogma run amok. There is no society in human history that
> ever suffered because its people became too reasonable.
>
> 3) Atheism is dogmatic.
>
> Jews, Christians and Muslims claim that their scriptures are so prescient
> of humanity's needs that they could only have been written under the
> direction of an omniscient deity. An atheist is simply a person who has
> considered this claim, read the books and found the claim to be
> ridiculous. One doesn't have to take anything on faith, or be otherwise
> dogmatic, to reject unjustified religious beliefs. As the historian
> Stephen Henry Roberts (1901-71) once said: "I contend that we are both
> atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand
> why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I
> dismiss yours."
>
> 4) Atheists think everything in the universe arose by chance.
>
> No one knows why the universe came into being. In fact, it is not entirely
> clear that we can coherently speak about the "beginning" or "creation" of
> the universe at all, as these ideas invoke the concept of time, and here
> we are talking about the origin of space-time itself.
>
> The notion that atheists believe that everything was created by chance is
> also regularly thrown up as a criticism of Darwinian evolution. As Richard
> Dawkins explains in his marvelous book, "The God Delusion," this
> represents an utter misunderstanding of evolutionary theory. Although we
> don't know precisely how the Earth's early chemistry begat biology, we
> know that the diversity and complexity we see in the living world is not a
> product of mere chance. Evolution is a combination of chance mutation and
> natural selection. Darwin arrived at the phrase "natural selection" by
> analogy to the "artificial selection" performed by breeders of livestock.
> In both cases, selection exerts a highly non-random effect on the
> development of any species.
>
> 5) Atheism has no connection to science.
>
> Although it is possible to be a scientist and still believe in God ‹ as
> some scientists seem to manage it ‹ there is no question that an
> engagement with scientific thinking tends to erode, rather than support,
> religious faith. Taking the U.S. population as an example: Most polls show
> that about 90% of the general public believes in a personal God; yet 93%
> of the members of the National Academy of Sciences do not. This suggests
> that there are few modes of thinking less congenial to religious faith
> than science is.
>
> 6) Atheists are arrogant.
>
> When scientists don't know something ‹ like why the universe came into
> being or how the first self-replicating molecules formed ‹ they admit it.
> Pretending to know things one doesn't know is a profound liability in
> science. And yet it is the life-blood of faith-based religion. One of the
> monumental ironies of religious discourse can be found in the frequency
> with which people of faith praise themselves for their humility, while
> claiming to know facts about cosmology, chemistry and biology that no
> scientist knows. When considering questions about the nature of the cosmos
> and our place within it, atheists tend to draw their opinions from
> science. This isn't arrogance; it is intellectual honesty.
>
> 7) Atheists are closed to spiritual experience.
>
> There is nothing that prevents an atheist from experiencing love, ecstasy,
> rapture and awe; atheists can value these experiences and seek them
> regularly. What atheists don't tend to do is make unjustified (and
> unjustifiable) claims about the nature of reality on the basis of such
> experiences. There is no question that some Christians have transformed
> their lives for the better by reading the Bible and praying to Jesus. What
> does this prove? It proves that certain disciplines of attention and codes
> of conduct can have a profound effect upon the human mind. Do the positive
> experiences of Christians suggest that Jesus is the sole savior of
> humanity? Not even remotely ‹ because Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims and even
> atheists regularly have similar experiences.
>
> There is, in fact, not a Christian on this Earth who can be certain that
> Jesus even wore a beard, much less that he was born of a virgin or rose
> from the dead. These are just not the sort of claims that spiritual
> experience can authenticate.
>
> 8) Atheists believe that there is nothing beyond human life and human
> understanding.
>
> Atheists are free to admit the limits of human understanding in a way that
> religious people are not. It is obvious that we do not fully understand
> the universe; but it is even more obvious that neither the Bible nor the
> Koran reflects our best understanding of it. We do not know whether there
> is complex life elsewhere in the cosmos, but there might be. If there is,
> such beings could have developed an understanding of nature's laws that
> vastly exceeds our own. Atheists can freely entertain such possibilities.
> They also can admit that if brilliant extraterrestrials exist, the
> contents of the Bible and the Koran will be even less impressive to them
> than they are to human atheists.
>
> From the atheist point of view, the world's religions utterly trivialize
> the real beauty and immensity of the universe. One doesn't have to accept
> anything on insufficient evidence to make such an observation.
>
> 9) Atheists ignore the fact that religion is extremely beneficial to
> society.
>
> Those who emphasize the good effects of religion never seem to realize
> that such effects fail to demonstrate the truth of any religious doctrine.
> This is why we have terms such as "wishful thinking" and "self-deception."
> There is a profound distinction between a consoling delusion and the
> truth.
>
> In any case, the good effects of religion can surely be disputed. In most
> cases, it seems that religion gives people bad reasons to behave well,
> when good reasons are actually available. Ask yourself, which is more
> moral, helping the poor out of concern for their suffering, or doing so
> because you think the creator of the universe wants you to do it, will
> reward you for doing it or will punish you for not doing it?
>
> 10) Atheism provides no basis for morality.
>
> If a person doesn't already understand that cruelty is wrong, he won't
> discover this by reading the Bible or the Koran ‹ as these books are
> bursting with celebrations of cruelty, both human and divine. We do not
> get our morality from religion. We decide what is good in our good books
> by recourse to moral intuitions that are (at some level) hard-wired in us
> and that have been refined by thousands of years of thinking about the
> causes and possibilities of human happiness.
>
> We have made considerable moral progress over the years, and we didn't
> make this progress by reading the Bible or the Koran more closely. Both
> books condone the practice of slavery ‹ and yet every civilized human
> being now recognizes that slavery is an abomination. Whatever is good in
> scripture ‹ like the golden rule ‹ can be valued for its ethical wisdom
> without our believing that it was handed down to us by the creator of the
> universe.
>
> From the LA Times;
>
> http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...nion-rightrail



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  #4  
Old 12-28-2006, 07:58 PM
Will Brink
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Myths and truths of atheism

In article <iFNkh.527510$1T2.311122@pd7urf2no>, "BradandBrooks"
<BradandBrooks@shaw.ca> wrote:

> C'mon Will... If I was to bring to light all the faults in this "reasoning",
> I'd be here to 2008.


Give it your best shot sparky.

>You honestly can't think you are the smartest thing in
> this universe, as far as you know today; see point #8,


Your reading skills appear as poor as your reasoning skills. Nothing in
point 8 claims we the "smartest thing in the universe." and the author
states

" It is obvious that we do not fully understand the universe;"


>cause until it IS
> proven, you, in effect, ARE God. That is laughable.
>
> To take on the other nine would take up way too much of my valuable time. I
> seriously thought you were smarter than this.


Your post only confirms what the author shows: you see what you want to
see and ignore reality and facts. Good work.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-28-2006, 07:58 PM
Will Brink
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OT: Myths and truths of atheism

In article <MPG.1ffd0d462b960ba2989ea5@news.chi.sbcglobal.net >, John Black
<jblack@texas.net> wrote:

> In article <willbrink-2712061936460001@192.168.2.156>,
> willbrink@comcast.net says...
> > From the LA Times:
> >
> > 10 myths -- and 10 truths -- about atheism
> > By Sam Harris, SAM HARRIS

>
> Well done.


Thanx John. I thought it was well written and interesting.

>
> John Black

Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-28-2006, 07:58 PM
lucky\(one\)
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Myths and truths of atheism

interesting post, It's sad the religious type is so scared they must tear
down free thinkers. While the free thinkers just want to get on with their
lives. They dismiss the religious fairytale stuff and think little else of
it until the religious type attack them and they then have to defend
themselves. Like I'm sure I'll be attacked by a religious type for this
reply. But mind you I hopefully won't engage because I'll be out trying to
enjoy my life.

"Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:willbrink-2712061936460001@192.168.2.156...
> From the LA Times:
>
> 10 myths -- and 10 truths -- about atheism
> By Sam Harris, SAM HARRIS
>
> SEVERAL POLLS indicate that the term "atheism" has acquired such an
> extraordinary stigma in the United States that being an atheist is now a
> perfect impediment to a career in politics (in a way that being black,
> Muslim or homosexual is not). According to a recent Newsweek poll, only
> 37% of Americans would vote for an otherwise qualified atheist for
> president.
>
> Atheists are often imagined to be intolerant, immoral, depressed, blind to
> the beauty of nature and dogmatically closed to evidence of the
> supernatural.
>
> Even John Locke, one of the great patriarchs of the Enlightenment,
> believed that atheism was "not at all to be tolerated" because, he said,
> "promises, covenants and oaths, which are the bonds of human societies,
> can have no hold upon an atheist."
>
> That was more than 300 years ago. But in the United States today, little
> seems to have changed. A remarkable 87% of the population claims "never to
> doubt" the existence of God; fewer than 10% identify themselves as
> atheists < and their reputation appears to be deteriorating.
>
> Given that we know that atheists are often among the most intelligent and
> scientifically literate people in any society, it seems important to
> deflate the myths that prevent them from playing a larger role in our
> national discourse.
>
> 1) Atheists believe that life is meaningless.
>
> On the contrary, religious people often worry that life is meaningless and
> imagine that it can only be redeemed by the promise of eternal happiness
> beyond the grave. Atheists tend to be quite sure that life is precious.
> Life is imbued with meaning by being really and fully lived. Our
> relationships with those we love are meaningful now; they need not last
> forever to be made so. Atheists tend to find this fear of meaninglessness
> S well S meaningless.
>
> 2) Atheism is responsible for the greatest crimes in human history.
>
> People of faith often claim that the crimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol
> Pot were the inevitable product of unbelief. The problem with fascism and
> communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the
> problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are
> dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are
> indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship. Auschwitz, the
> gulag and the killing fields were not examples of what happens when human
> beings reject religious dogma; they are examples of political, racial and
> nationalistic dogma run amok. There is no society in human history that
> ever suffered because its people became too reasonable.
>
> 3) Atheism is dogmatic.
>
> Jews, Christians and Muslims claim that their scriptures are so prescient
> of humanity's needs that they could only have been written under the
> direction of an omniscient deity. An atheist is simply a person who has
> considered this claim, read the books and found the claim to be
> ridiculous. One doesn't have to take anything on faith, or be otherwise
> dogmatic, to reject unjustified religious beliefs. As the historian
> Stephen Henry Roberts (1901-71) once said: "I contend that we are both
> atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand
> why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I
> dismiss yours."
>
> 4) Atheists think everything in the universe arose by chance.
>
> No one knows why the universe came into being. In fact, it is not entirely
> clear that we can coherently speak about the "beginning" or "creation" of
> the universe at all, as these ideas invoke the concept of time, and here
> we are talking about the origin of space-time itself.
>
> The notion that atheists believe that everything was created by chance is
> also regularly thrown up as a criticism of Darwinian evolution. As Richard
> Dawkins explains in his marvelous book, "The God Delusion," this
> represents an utter misunderstanding of evolutionary theory. Although we
> don't know precisely how the Earth's early chemistry begat biology, we
> know that the diversity and complexity we see in the living world is not a
> product of mere chance. Evolution is a combination of chance mutation and
> natural selection. Darwin arrived at the phrase "natural selection" by
> analogy to the "artificial selection" performed by breeders of livestock.
> In both cases, selection exerts a highly non-random effect on the
> development of any species.
>
> 5) Atheism has no connection to science.
>
> Although it is possible to be a scientist and still believe in God < as
> some scientists seem to manage it < there is no question that an
> engagement with scientific thinking tends to erode, rather than support,
> religious faith. Taking the U.S. population as an example: Most polls show
> that about 90% of the general public believes in a personal God; yet 93%
> of the members of the National Academy of Sciences do not. This suggests
> that there are few modes of thinking less congenial to religious faith
> than science is.
>
> 6) Atheists are arrogant.
>
> When scientists don't know something < like why the universe came into
> being or how the first self-replicating molecules formed < they admit it.
> Pretending to know things one doesn't know is a profound liability in
> science. And yet it is the life-blood of faith-based religion. One of the
> monumental ironies of religious discourse can be found in the frequency
> with which people of faith praise themselves for their humility, while
> claiming to know facts about cosmology, chemistry and biology that no
> scientist knows. When considering questions about the nature of the cosmos
> and our place within it, atheists tend to draw their opinions from
> science. This isn't arrogance; it is intellectual honesty.
>
> 7) Atheists are closed to spiritual experience.
>
> There is nothing that prevents an atheist from experiencing love, ecstasy,
> rapture and awe; atheists can value these experiences and seek them
> regularly. What atheists don't tend to do is make unjustified (and
> unjustifiable) claims about the nature of reality on the basis of such
> experiences. There is no question that some Christians have transformed
> their lives for the better by reading the Bible and praying to Jesus. What
> does this prove? It proves that certain disciplines of attention and codes
> of conduct can have a profound effect upon the human mind. Do the positive
> experiences of Christians suggest that Jesus is the sole savior of
> humanity? Not even remotely < because Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims and even
> atheists regularly have similar experiences.
>
> There is, in fact, not a Christian on this Earth who can be certain that
> Jesus even wore a beard, much less that he was born of a virgin or rose
> from the dead. These are just not the sort of claims that spiritual
> experience can authenticate.
>
> 8) Atheists believe that there is nothing beyond human life and human
> understanding.
>
> Atheists are free to admit the limits of human understanding in a way that
> religious people are not. It is obvious that we do not fully understand
> the universe; but it is even more obvious that neither the Bible nor the
> Koran reflects our best understanding of it. We do not know whether there
> is complex life elsewhere in the cosmos, but there might be. If there is,
> such beings could have developed an understanding of nature's laws that
> vastly exceeds our own. Atheists can freely entertain such possibilities.
> They also can admit that if brilliant extraterrestrials exist, the
> contents of the Bible and the Koran will be even less impressive to them
> than they are to human atheists.
>
> From the atheist point of view, the world's religions utterly trivialize
> the real beauty and immensity of the universe. One doesn't have to accept
> anything on insufficient evidence to make such an observation.
>
> 9) Atheists ignore the fact that religion is extremely beneficial to
> society.
>
> Those who emphasize the good effects of religion never seem to realize
> that such effects fail to demonstrate the truth of any religious doctrine.
> This is why we have terms such as "wishful thinking" and "self-deception."
> There is a profound distinction between a consoling delusion and the
> truth.
>
> In any case, the good effects of religion can surely be disputed. In most
> cases, it seems that religion gives people bad reasons to behave well,
> when good reasons are actually available. Ask yourself, which is more
> moral, helping the poor out of concern for their suffering, or doing so
> because you think the creator of the universe wants you to do it, will
> reward you for doing it or will punish you for not doing it?
>
> 10) Atheism provides no basis for morality.
>
> If a person doesn't already understand that cruelty is wrong, he won't
> discover this by reading the Bible or the Koran < as these books are
> bursting with celebrations of cruelty, both human and divine. We do not
> get our morality from religion. We decide what is good in our good books
> by recourse to moral intuitions that are (at some level) hard-wired in us
> and that have been refined by thousands of years of thinking about the
> causes and possibilities of human happiness.
>
> We have made considerable moral progress over the years, and we didn't
> make this progress by reading the Bible or the Koran more closely. Both
> books condone the practice of slavery < and yet every civilized human
> being now recognizes that slavery is an abomination. Whatever is good in
> scripture < like the golden rule < can be valued for its ethical wisdom
> without our believing that it was handed down to us by the creator of the
> universe.
>
> From the LA Times;
>
> http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...nion-rightrail



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  #7  
Old 12-28-2006, 07:58 PM
Will Brink
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Myths and truths of atheism

In article <39idnZGMD9NZew7YnZ2dnUVZ_syunZ2d@insightbb.com> ,
"lucky\(one\)" <lucky(1)@insightbb.com> wrote:

> interesting post, It's sad the religious type is so scared they must tear
> down free thinkers.


Of course. All through history, that has been the case.
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  #8  
Old 12-28-2006, 07:59 PM
Stephan Carydakis
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Myths and truths of atheism


"Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:willbrink-2812061120030001@192.168.2.156...
> In article <39idnZGMD9NZew7YnZ2dnUVZ_syunZ2d@insightbb.com> ,
> "lucky\(one\)" <lucky(1)@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
> > interesting post, It's sad the religious type is so scared they must

tear
> > down free thinkers.

>
> Of course. All through history, that has been the case.


Sure has... But are these ones really religious types or are they power
hungry control freaks who say they are religious types? I ascribe to this
way of thinking: If you go to a Rugby match and some players begin to play
basketball (even though they call themselves Rugby players), then it's
obvious they are liars.


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  #9  
Old 12-28-2006, 07:59 PM
Will Brink
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Myths and truths of atheism

In article <en0vtc$24am$1@otis.netspace.net.au>, "Stephan Carydakis"
<steph777@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote:

> "Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:willbrink-2812061120030001@192.168.2.156...
> > In article <39idnZGMD9NZew7YnZ2dnUVZ_syunZ2d@insightbb.com> ,
> > "lucky\(one\)" <lucky(1)@insightbb.com> wrote:
> >
> > > interesting post, It's sad the religious type is so scared they must

> tear
> > > down free thinkers.

> >
> > Of course. All through history, that has been the case.

>
> Sure has... But are these ones really religious types or are they power
> hungry control freaks who say they are religious types?


There's a difference?
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  #10  
Old 12-29-2006, 04:22 AM
Stephan Carydakis
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Myths and truths of atheism


"Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:willbrink-2812061440350001@192.168.2.156...
> In article <en0vtc$24am$1@otis.netspace.net.au>, "Stephan Carydakis"
> <steph777@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote:
>
> > "Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:willbrink-2812061120030001@192.168.2.156...
> > > In article <39idnZGMD9NZew7YnZ2dnUVZ_syunZ2d@insightbb.com> ,
> > > "lucky\(one\)" <lucky(1)@insightbb.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > interesting post, It's sad the religious type is so scared they must

> > tear
> > > > down free thinkers.
> > >
> > > Of course. All through history, that has been the case.

> >
> > Sure has... But are these ones really religious types or are they power
> > hungry control freaks who say they are religious types?

>
> There's a difference?


Good point. But I believe there are some 'genuine' types who are not
necessarily interested in the power, control, money etc. There are always
exceptions to the rule.


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  #11  
Old 12-30-2006, 12:53 AM
Will Brink
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Myths and truths of atheism

In article <en23j1$2btr$1@otis.netspace.net.au>, "Stephan Carydakis"
<steph777@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote:

> "Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:willbrink-2812061440350001@192.168.2.156...
> > In article <en0vtc$24am$1@otis.netspace.net.au>, "Stephan Carydakis"
> > <steph777@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote:
> >
> > > "Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > news:willbrink-2812061120030001@192.168.2.156...
> > > > In article <39idnZGMD9NZew7YnZ2dnUVZ_syunZ2d@insightbb.com> ,
> > > > "lucky\(one\)" <lucky(1)@insightbb.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > interesting post, It's sad the religious type is so scared they must
> > > tear
> > > > > down free thinkers.
> > > >
> > > > Of course. All through history, that has been the case.
> > >
> > > Sure has... But are these ones really religious types or are they power
> > > hungry control freaks who say they are religious types?

> >
> > There's a difference?

>
> Good point. But I believe there are some 'genuine' types who are not
> necessarily interested in the power, control, money etc. There are always
> exceptions to the rule.


True, but when those exceptions make up 0.000000001% of the sample
population, what good are they?
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  #12  
Old 12-30-2006, 12:53 AM
DZ
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Myths and truths of atheism

Will Brink <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote:
>> "Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote:
>>>> "Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>> "lucky\(one\)" <lucky(1)@insightbb.com> wrote:
>>>>>> interesting post, It's sad the religious type is so scared
>>>>>> they must tear down free thinkers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course. All through history, that has been the case.
>>>>
>>>> Sure has... But are these ones really religious types or are they power
>>>> hungry control freaks who say they are religious types?
>>>
>>> There's a difference?

>>
>> Good point. But I believe there are some 'genuine' types who are not
>> necessarily interested in the power, control, money etc. There are always
>> exceptions to the rule.

>
> True, but when those exceptions make up 0.000000001% of the sample
> population, what good are they?


Well, this discussion is starting to support some of the myths
outlined in the LA Times, like that atheists are intolerant and
arrogant.
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  #13  
Old 01-01-2007, 04:49 PM
Stephan Carydakis
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Myths and truths of atheism


"Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:willbrink-2912061001520001@192.168.2.156...
> In article <en23j1$2btr$1@otis.netspace.net.au>, "Stephan Carydakis"
> <steph777@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote:
>
> > "Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:willbrink-2812061440350001@192.168.2.156...
> > > In article <en0vtc$24am$1@otis.netspace.net.au>, "Stephan Carydakis"
> > > <steph777@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:willbrink-2812061120030001@192.168.2.156...
> > > > > In article <39idnZGMD9NZew7YnZ2dnUVZ_syunZ2d@insightbb.com> ,
> > > > > "lucky\(one\)" <lucky(1)@insightbb.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > interesting post, It's sad the religious type is so scared they

must
> > > > tear
> > > > > > down free thinkers.
> > > > >
> > > > > Of course. All through history, that has been the case.
> > > >
> > > > Sure has... But are these ones really religious types or are they

power
> > > > hungry control freaks who say they are religious types?
> > >
> > > There's a difference?

> >
> > Good point. But I believe there are some 'genuine' types who are not
> > necessarily interested in the power, control, money etc. There are

always
> > exceptions to the rule.

>
> True, but when those exceptions make up 0.000000001% of the sample
> population, what good are they?


I didn't make any comment as to how useful the exceptions to the rule may
be. But since you ask, those who may benefit from their friendship or anyone
who may benefit from their genuine humanity would probably say they are
'good'. Infections of that nature are not bad in my book.


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  #14  
Old 01-01-2007, 04:49 PM
gedaloda@thisguy.com
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Myths and truths of atheism

On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 18:14:31 +0000 (UTC), DZ
<99@194717518.339024169.26973.2710.42> wrote:

>Will Brink <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote:
>> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote:
>>> "Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote:
>>>>> "Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>> "lucky\(one\)" <lucky(1)@insightbb.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> interesting post, It's sad the religious type is so scared
>>>>>>> they must tear down free thinkers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course. All through history, that has been the case.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure has... But are these ones really religious types or are they power
>>>>> hungry control freaks who say they are religious types?
>>>>
>>>> There's a difference?
>>>
>>> Good point. But I believe there are some 'genuine' types who are not
>>> necessarily interested in the power, control, money etc. There are always
>>> exceptions to the rule.

>>
>> True, but when those exceptions make up 0.000000001% of the sample
>> population, what good are they?

>
>Well, this discussion is starting to support some of the myths
>outlined in the LA Times, like that atheists are intolerant and
>arrogant.


No doubt some atheists - like some religious people - are intolerant
and arrogant. There are far more religious people than atheists so
there are going to be far more arrogant and intolerant believers than
non-believers. Of course, people who are arrogant and intolerant
may find themselves disliked for reasons that have little to do with
their faith or lack thereof.

I don't care whether people are religious or not. I do care about
protecting the First and Fourteenth Amendments with respect to the
separation of Church and State - a distinction that was appropriately
maintained, for the most part, throughout U.S. history until G.W. Bush
and his Religious Right supporters succeeded, to some extent, in
blurring or undermining it.

I wouldn't say that I know that "God" exists or doesn't exist. I never
know what people mean when they talk about "God."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism Furthermore, I can't imagine
that "God" (unlike many religious people) would hold my attitudes and
perspective against me. "God" can believe in me regardless.
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  #15  
Old 01-02-2007, 01:56 AM
DZ
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Myths and truths of atheism

gedaloda@thisguy.com <gedaloda@thisguy.com> wrote:
> DZ wrote:
>> Will Brink <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote:
>>>> "Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote:
>>>>>> "Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> "lucky\(one\)" <lucky(1)@insightbb.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> interesting post, It's sad the religious type is so scared
>>>>>>>> they must tear down free thinkers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course. All through history, that has been the case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure has... But are these ones really religious types or are they power
>>>>>> hungry control freaks who say they are religious types?
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a difference?
>>>>
>>>> Good point. But I believe there are some 'genuine' types who are not
>>>> necessarily interested in the power, control, money etc. There are always
>>>> exceptions to the rule.
>>>
>>> True, but when those exceptions make up 0.000000001% of the sample
>>> population, what good are they?

>>
>>Well, this discussion is starting to support some of the myths
>>outlined in the LA Times, like that atheists are intolerant and
>>arrogant.

>

....
> I wouldn't say that I know that "God" exists or doesn't exist. I
> never know what people mean when they talk about "God."
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism


That's similar to what I've always been saying, but instead of
ignoring, I ask: "Show me the beef". My view comes from the Bayesian
philosophy a la IJ Good. There is either nothing to talk about
(i.e. to believe/not to believe in), or as a god is started to be
decorated with details to become a concept, it quickly becomes highly
improbable.
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  #16  
Old 01-02-2007, 01:56 AM
gedaloda@thisguy.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Myths and truths of atheism

On Mon, 1 Jan 2007 20:55:30 +0000 (UTC), DZ
<17604@1247215695.300419028.16361.24142.12307> wrote:

>gedaloda@thisguy.com <gedaloda@thisguy.com> wrote:
>> DZ wrote:
>>> Will Brink <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote:
>>>>> "Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote:
>>>>>>> "Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> "lucky\(one\)" <lucky(1)@insightbb.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> interesting post, It's sad the religious type is so scared
>>>>>>>>> they must tear down free thinkers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course. All through history, that has been the case.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sure has... But are these ones really religious types or are they power
>>>>>>> hungry control freaks who say they are religious types?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's a difference?
>>>>>
>>>>> Good point. But I believe there are some 'genuine' types who are not
>>>>> necessarily interested in the power, control, money etc. There are always
>>>>> exceptions to the rule.
>>>>
>>>> True, but when those exceptions make up 0.000000001% of the sample
>>>> population, what good are they?
>>>
>>>Well, this discussion is starting to support some of the myths
>>>outlined in the LA Times, like that atheists are intolerant and
>>>arrogant.

>>

>...
>> I wouldn't say that I know that "God" exists or doesn't exist. I
>> never know what people mean when they talk about "God."
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism

>
>That's similar to what I've always been saying, but instead of
>ignoring, I ask: "Show me the beef". My view comes from the Bayesian
>philosophy a la IJ Good. There is either nothing to talk about
>(i.e. to believe/not to believe in), or as a god is started to be
>decorated with details to become a concept, it quickly becomes highly
>improbable.


Absolute truth, if such exists, is something that can never be spoken.
Spoken truth is relative, each to his own. No one can "show me the
beef." Still, I won't deny anything on the basis of relativity whose
existence does not prove the non-existence of universal truth.
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  #17  
Old 01-02-2007, 01:56 AM
Will Brink
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Default Re: Myths and truths of atheism

In article <23964@2191717455.411911558.22006.23353.3637>, DZ
<17604@1247215695.300419028.16361.24142.12307> wrote:


> ...
> > I wouldn't say that I know that "God" exists or doesn't exist. I
> > never know what people mean when they talk about "God."
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism

>
> That's similar to what I've always been saying, but instead of
> ignoring, I ask: "Show me the beef".


Exactly. The day I walk out of my house to find a burning bush on the lawn
that can speak to me, I will be the biggest Bible thumper this side of
America. Faith is the absence of proof however. No proof, no interest.
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  #18  
Old 01-02-2007, 01:56 AM
David Cohen
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Default Re: Myths and truths of atheism


"Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote
> DZ wrote:
>> > I wouldn't say that I know that "God" exists or doesn't exist. I
>> > never know what people mean when they talk about "God."
>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism

>>
>> That's similar to what I've always been saying, but instead of
>> ignoring, I ask: "Show me the beef".


When you get to my advanced years, you may find my approach preferable:
Smiling knowingly, and say, somewhat condescendingly, "yeah, whatever".

> Exactly. The day I walk out of my house to find a burning bush on the lawn
> that can speak to me, I will be the biggest Bible thumper this side of
> America. Faith is the absence of proof however. No proof, no interest.


Not exactly. If I told you were was an intelligent civilization on the fifth
planet circling the star Beta Cignus (made that up), you couldn't say I was
wrong. The issue is open to proof. Some day, we might travel to Beta Cignus,
and we could find out if I was correct. In other words, it's provable or
disprovable.

God isn't open to proof. Faith is the absence of provabilty. It is, by
definition, unprovable. And, therefore, irrelevant. Except as a topic of
sociology/psychology/history/politics/literature.

IOW, "yeah, whatever".

David



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  #19  
Old 01-02-2007, 01:56 AM
gedaloda@thisguy.com
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Myths and truths of atheism

On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 18:14:55 -0500, willbrink@comcast.net (Will Brink)
wrote:

>In article <23964@2191717455.411911558.22006.23353.3637>, DZ
><17604@1247215695.300419028.16361.24142.12307> wrote:
>
>
>> ...
>> > I wouldn't say that I know that "God" exists or doesn't exist. I
>> > never know what people mean when they talk about "God."
>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism

>>
>> That's similar to what I've always been saying, but instead of
>> ignoring, I ask: "Show me the beef".

>
>Exactly. The day I walk out of my house to find a burning bush on the lawn
>that can speak to me, I will be the biggest Bible thumper this side of
>America. Faith is the absence of proof however. No proof, no interest.


I know a "true believer" who "found God" through experiencing a
"miraculous" event. He now believes that the Pentateuch and the New
Testament (King James version) are literally true in every detail.
Although his belief system is more than a little disquieting, I'm sure
he is not the scariest person to have undergone a conversion
experience as a result of experiencing a "miracle."
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  #20  
Old 01-02-2007, 01:56 AM
DZ
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Myths and truths of atheism

David Cohen <sammiesdad@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> DZ wrote:
>>> gedaloda@thisguy.com wrote:
>>> > I wouldn't say that I know that "God" exists or doesn't exist. I
>>> > never know what people mean when they talk about "God."
>>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism
>>>
>>> That's similar to what I've always been saying, but instead of
>>> ignoring, I ask: "Show me the beef".

>
> When you get to my advanced years, you may find my approach preferable:
> Smiling knowingly, and say, somewhat condescendingly, "yeah, whatever".


Sure. I don't use that as an argument with actual people. It's just a
part of the reasoning that leads me to reject a god worthy of belief -
in other words, a god with even a minimum degree of specification.
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  #21  
Old 01-02-2007, 01:56 AM
David Cohen
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Myths and truths of atheism


"DZ" <18059@1452423895.2419421348.5820.32057.29512> wrote
> David Cohen <sammiesdad@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> DZ wrote:
>>>> gedaloda@thisguy.com wrote:
>>>> > I wouldn't say that I know that "God" exists or doesn't exist. I
>>>> > never know what people mean when they talk about "God."
>>>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism
>>>>
>>>> That's similar to what I've always been saying, but instead of
>>>> ignoring, I ask: "Show me the beef".

>>
>> When you get to my advanced years, you may find my approach preferable:
>> Smiling knowingly, and say, somewhat condescendingly, "yeah, whatever".

>
> Sure. I don't use that as an argument with actual people. It's just a
> part of the reasoning that leads me to reject a god worthy of belief -
> in other words, a god with even a minimum degree of specification.


Ah, I see. Those who argue their atheism at every chance are just going
through a process. I call them "card carrying atheists", although "born
again atheists" would also be appropriate. They belong to atheist clubs, and
have atheist meetings, and read/write atheist books, and file silly lawsuits
to stop every mention of God everywhere possible. Hopefully, they evolve,
eventually, to the ultimate "yeah, whatever" stage.

David


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  #22  
Old 01-02-2007, 12:14 PM
JMW
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Myths and truths of atheism

DZ <18059@1452423895.2419421348.5820.32057.29512> wrote:
>David Cohen <sammiesdad@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> DZ wrote:
>>>> gedaloda@thisguy.com wrote:
>>>> > I wouldn't say that I know that "God" exists or doesn't exist. I
>>>> > never know what people mean when they talk about "God."
>>>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism
>>>>
>>>> That's similar to what I've always been saying, but instead of
>>>> ignoring, I ask: "Show me the beef".

>>
>> When you get to my advanced years, you may find my approach preferable:
>> Smiling knowingly, and say, somewhat condescendingly, "yeah, whatever".

>
>Sure. I don't use that as an argument with actual people. It's just a
>part of the reasoning that leads me to reject a god worthy of belief -
>in other words, a god with even a minimum degree of specification.


You're both still tied into your Jewish "deity specifications."
Certain presumptions are inherent in your very statements. For
instance, your statements presume what Buddhists refer to as "God the
Other," some entity whole divided from yourselves, an "Us and Him"
dichotomy. You also seem to presume a God-Who-Gives-A-Shit. Neither
of those attributes are necessary for a universal conscious. The
classic omnipotence and omniscience aren't necessary, either.
Omnipresence is another issue, but that's largely dependent upon what
one considers real and what one considers illusory.
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  #23  
Old 01-02-2007, 12:14 PM
David Cohen
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Myths and truths of atheism


"JMW" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote
> DZ <18059@1452423895.2419421348.5820.32057.29512> wrote:
>>David Cohen <sammiesdad@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> DZ wrote:
>>>>> gedaloda@thisguy.com wrote:
>>>>> > I wouldn't say that I know that "God" exists or doesn't exist. I
>>>>> > never know what people mean when they talk about "God."
>>>>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism
>>>>>
>>>>> That's similar to what I've always been saying, but instead of
>>>>> ignoring, I ask: "Show me the beef".
>>>
>>> When you get to my advanced years, you may find my approach preferable:
>>> Smiling knowingly, and say, somewhat condescendingly, "yeah, whatever".

>>
>>Sure. I don't use that as an argument with actual people. It's just a
>>part of the reasoning that leads me to reject a god worthy of belief -
>>in other words, a god with even a minimum degree of specification.

>
> You're both still tied into your Jewish "deity specifications."
> Certain presumptions are inherent in your very statements. For
> instance, your statements presume what Buddhists refer to as "God the
> Other," some entity whole divided from yourselves, an "Us and Him"
> dichotomy. You also seem to presume a God-Who-Gives-A-Shit. Neither
> of those attributes are necessary for a universal conscious. The
> classic omnipotence and omniscience aren't necessary, either.
> Omnipresence is another issue, but that's largely dependent upon what
> one considers real and what one considers illusory.


Fine. I'm defining God as a 16 inch tall, 35 pound, Staffordshire Bull
Terrier with a gigantic tongue. Send tribute.

Or maybe I can just snatch the pebble from your hand and be done with it?

David


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  #24  
Old 01-02-2007, 12:14 PM
JMW
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Myths and truths of atheism

"David Cohen" <sammiesdad@earthlink.net> wrote:
>"JMW" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote
>> DZ <18059@1452423895.2419421348.5820.32057.29512> wrote:
>>>David Cohen <sammiesdad@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>> DZ wrote:
>>>>>> gedaloda@thisguy.com wrote:
>>>>>> > I wouldn't say that I know that "God" exists or doesn't exist. I
>>>>>> > never know what people mean when they talk about "God."
>>>>>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's similar to what I've always been saying, but instead of
>>>>>> ignoring, I ask: "Show me the beef".
>>>>
>>>> When you get to my advanced years, you may find my approach preferable:
>>>> Smiling knowingly, and say, somewhat condescendingly, "yeah, whatever".
>>>
>>>Sure. I don't use that as an argument with actual people. It's just a
>>>part of the reasoning that leads me to reject a god worthy of belief -
>>>in other words, a god with even a minimum degree of specification.

>>
>> You're both still tied into your Jewish "deity specifications."
>> Certain presumptions are inherent in your very statements. For
>> instance, your statements presume what Buddhists refer to as "God the
>> Other," some entity whole divided from yourselves, an "Us and Him"
>> dichotomy. You also seem to presume a God-Who-Gives-A-Shit. Neither
>> of those attributes are necessary for a universal conscious. The
>> classic omnipotence and omniscience aren't necessary, either.
>> Omnipresence is another issue, but that's largely dependent upon what
>> one considers real and what one considers illusory.

>
>Fine. I'm defining God as a 16 inch tall, 35 pound, Staffordshire Bull
>Terrier with a gigantic tongue. Send tribute.
><