Preparing for morning workouts

It's been almost a year since I've worked out with any consitency, and
I'm blaming it primarily on the time of day I've set aside. I've been
trying to squeeze my workouts in at the end of the day, and either
they don't get done or I wind up working out so late that it keeps me
wired for hours past my bedtime. I'm going to give morning workouts a
shot, but the problem is I only have about 1.5 to 2 hours to workout,
eat, shower, etc. before heading to work (unless I get up earlier,
which I'd prefer not to do). I'm trying to come up with an optimal
strategy so I can finally start sticking with something.

The most efficient thing I can think of is working out right after
getting up, and then eating my breakfeast afterwards, but the thought
of working out on an empty tank just frightens me but perhaps I'm
being unreasonable. Conversely, the thought of eating breakfeast and
sitting around for at least an hour before working out doesn't sound
like it will work either. I absolutely have to get back to a
consistent schedule, so I'm willing to try numerous things with the
least appealing being getting up earlier. :-) I'd love to hear what
other morning workout people do and what your routines are like.

Thanks for any suggestions.

Dnia Sun, 07 Oct 2007 o 18:15 GMT Dennis McBride napisa³(a):
> It's been almost a year since I've worked out with any consitency, and
> I'm blaming it primarily on the time of day I've set aside. I've been
> trying to squeeze my workouts in at the end of the day, and either
> they don't get done or I wind up working out so late that it keeps me
> wired for hours past my bedtime. I'm going to give morning workouts a
> shot, but the problem is I only have about 1.5 to 2 hours to workout,
> eat, shower, etc. before heading to work (unless I get up earlier,
> which I'd prefer not to do). I'm trying to come up with an optimal
> strategy so I can finally start sticking with something.

Use supersets and/or so called PR-zones. You dedicate about 15 min to
every PR-zone and try to do as many reps within this time constraint as
you can. Shoot for 30-40 rep range. Two PR-zones, especially
consisting of supersets, is quite a lot.

Alternately consider training daily one-lift-a-day fashion. Then you
could be done with your workout in less than 20 min a day including
warmup.

> The most efficient thing I can think of is working out right after
> getting up, and then eating my breakfeast afterwards, but the thought
> of working out on an empty tank just frightens me but perhaps I'm
> being unreasonable.

I do train on an empty stomach most of the time. If I'm feeling
especially low on energy, I take a cookie, candy or something along
these lines with a wake-up coffee. Don't eat anything "serious" before
workout. It's hard to digest and exert yourself at the same time.

> Conversely, the thought of eating breakfeast and
> sitting around for at least an hour before working out doesn't sound
> like it will work either. I absolutely have to get back to a
> consistent schedule, so I'm willing to try numerous things with the
> least appealing being getting up earlier. :-)

It shouldn't be necessary. A bit of sweets with coffee should do the
trick even if you are one of those people, who have to eat before
workout. I know one person like that, and she'd feel lightheaded
when trying to work while hungry, but even she's fine with a light snack
to keep her energy up.

> I'd love to hear what
> other morning workout people do and what your routines are like.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions.


--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

In article <931ig3p5mm1i1723gb9u3gvta7ufacs4qb@4ax.com>,
Dennis McBride <dmcbride@'nospam'google.com> wrote:

> It's been almost a year since I've worked out with any consitency, and
> I'm blaming it primarily on the time of day I've set aside. I've been
> trying to squeeze my workouts in at the end of the day, and either
> they don't get done or I wind up working out so late that it keeps me
> wired for hours past my bedtime. I'm going to give morning workouts a
> shot, but the problem is I only have about 1.5 to 2 hours to workout,
> eat, shower, etc. before heading to work (unless I get up earlier,
> which I'd prefer not to do). I'm trying to come up with an optimal
> strategy so I can finally start sticking with something.
>
> The most efficient thing I can think of is working out right after
> getting up, and then eating my breakfeast afterwards, but the thought
> of working out on an empty tank just frightens me but perhaps I'm
> being unreasonable. Conversely, the thought of eating breakfeast and
> sitting around for at least an hour before working out doesn't sound
> like it will work either. I absolutely have to get back to a
> consistent schedule, so I'm willing to try numerous things with the
> least appealing being getting up earlier. :-) I'd love to hear what
> other morning workout people do and what your routines are like.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions.

Coffee fuels mine. I spend more time on endurance and flexibility in the
morning. I'll normally do some tumbling, speed bag work, sprints and
then dynamic stretching. May do some kettlebell/db high rep work.

Then I have a light breakfast.

--
Keith

"Dennis McBride" wrote:

> It's been almost a year since I've worked out with any consitency, and
> I'm blaming it primarily on the time of day I've set aside. I've been
> trying to squeeze my workouts in at the end of the day, and either
> they don't get done or I wind up working out so late that it keeps me
> wired for hours past my bedtime. I'm going to give morning workouts a
> shot, but the problem is I only have about 1.5 to 2 hours to workout,
> eat, shower, etc. before heading to work (unless I get up earlier,
> which I'd prefer not to do). I'm trying to come up with an optimal
> strategy so I can finally start sticking with something.
>
> The most efficient thing I can think of is working out right after
> getting up, and then eating my breakfeast afterwards, but the thought
> of working out on an empty tank just frightens me but perhaps I'm
> being unreasonable.

Not "unreasonable" at all. Training on an empty stomach isn't a good thing
to do; it can cause your body to start breaking down muscle protein.

>Conversely, the thought of eating breakfeast and
> sitting around for at least an hour before working out doesn't sound
> like it will work either.

At least have a small snack beforehand.

>I absolutely have to get back to a
> consistent schedule, so I'm willing to try numerous things with the
> least appealing being getting up earlier. :-) I'd love to hear what
> other morning workout people do and what your routines are like.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions.

If you are really pushed for time, try doing a full body work out, three
times per week. Keep it very simple and use only compound exercises. By
doing so you can get your whole body done on minimal exercises. For example,
squats, chins and dips or power clean/ press and deadlifts etc.

Just some food for thought

Ruiseart.
--
Ruiseart Alcorn - Celtic folk/rock music
http://www.myspace.com/ruiseartalcorn

Gaelic Druid Order
http://www.geocities.com/gdosc/

Dnia Mon, 08 Oct 2007 o 02:31 GMT Ruiseart agus Ceit napisa³(a):
> "Dennis McBride" wrote:
[...]
>> The most efficient thing I can think of is working out right after
>> getting up, and then eating my breakfeast afterwards, but the thought
>> of working out on an empty tank just frightens me but perhaps I'm
>> being unreasonable.
>
> Not "unreasonable" at all. Training on an empty stomach isn't a good thing
> to do; it can cause your body to start breaking down muscle protein.

This is quite a nonsense. Really. Training breaks down muscles. The
harder you train, the more muscles will be broken, so if your energy
tanks are full, and you have a good workout, your body will break down
more muscle protein than if you are sleepy and hungry.

And you seem to be totally unaware, that rebuilding those broken muscles
happens mostly at night, when you sleep. Definitely _not_ during
training.

[...]
>>I absolutely have to get back to a
>> consistent schedule, so I'm willing to try numerous things with the
>> least appealing being getting up earlier. :-) I'd love to hear what
>> other morning workout people do and what your routines are like.
>>
>> Thanks for any suggestions.
>
> If you are really pushed for time, try doing a full body work out, three
> times per week.

Full body workouts aren't short.

> Keep it very simple and use only compound exercises. By
> doing so you can get your whole body done on minimal exercises. For example,
> squats, chins and dips or power clean/ press and deadlifts etc.

Five exercises in four days (including days off). What if one did
squats one day, chin&dip next day, clean&press third day and then
deadlift? Now you have the same exercises evenly spread over four days
period. You need less time every day and you create a _habit_ of
training. It's like washing your teeth, after a while.

Training days and days-off fit some people, especially if you have to
invest a lot of time into dressing for gym, getting to a gym, working
out, waiting for equipment, socializing, getting home, taking a shower,
whatever else. If you can simply grab a bar and do your training,
trade offs look differently. Also, you'll need days-off if you use
full body workouts, but full body workouts aren't mandatory.

[...]
--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

>> Not "unreasonable" at all. Training on an empty stomach isn't a good
>> thing
>> to do; it can cause your body to start breaking down muscle protein.
>
> This is quite a nonsense. Really. Training breaks down muscles. The
> harder you train, the more muscles will be broken, so if your energy
> tanks are full, and you have a good workout, your body will break down
> more muscle protein than if you are sleepy and hungry.

I think you missed the point of my post, which is, if one trains on an empty
stomach, then the body tries to use muscle protein for fuel, instead of the
carbs absorbed from a good breakfast.

> And you seem to be totally unaware, that rebuilding those broken muscles
> happens mostly at night, when you sleep. Definitely _not_ during
> training.

I am not unaware of that at all. I wasn't talking about rebuilding broken
muscles. I was talking about providing the body with fuel for the workout.

> Full body workouts aren't short.

They can be short or long, depending on what the objectives are. My own
full-body workouts take about 1.5 hours, however, when I don't have a lot of
time I simply perform a few compound exercises that use all the major muscle
groups. It's very possible to thoroughly hammer the entire body in 30mins.

>> Keep it very simple and use only compound exercises. By
>> doing so you can get your whole body done on minimal exercises. For
>> example,
>> squats, chins and dips or power clean/ press and deadlifts etc.
>
> Five exercises in four days (including days off). What if one did
> squats one day, chin&dip next day, clean&press third day and then
> deadlift? Now you have the same exercises evenly spread over four days
> period. You need less time every day and you create a _habit_ of
> training. It's like washing your teeth, after a while.

Of course that would be fine. However, I personally feel that full body
workouts get the best results. I've used split routines many times however I
always return to my old favourite.

> Training days and days-off fit some people, especially if you have to
> invest a lot of time into dressing for gym, getting to a gym, working
> out, waiting for equipment, socializing, getting home, taking a shower,
> whatever else. If you can simply grab a bar and do your training,
> trade offs look differently. Also, you'll need days-off if you use
> full body workouts, but full body workouts aren't mandatory.

Of course they're not mandatory. I just prefer them and feel that short
(ish) full body workouts, on Mon/Wed/Fri work very well. It's a time tested
method that is sadly overlooked in these modern times of split routines and
gross over training.

Ruiseart.

"Dennis McBride" <dmcbride@'nospam'google.com> wrote in message
news:931ig3p5mm1i1723gb9u3gvta7ufacs4qb@4ax.com...
> It's been almost a year since I've worked out with any consitency, and
> I'm blaming it primarily on the time of day I've set aside. I've been
> trying to squeeze my workouts in at the end of the day, and either
> they don't get done or I wind up working out so late that it keeps me
> wired for hours past my bedtime. I'm going to give morning workouts a
> shot, but the problem is I only have about 1.5 to 2 hours to workout,
> eat, shower, etc. before heading to work (unless I get up earlier,
> which I'd prefer not to do). I'm trying to come up with an optimal
> strategy so I can finally start sticking with something.
>
> The most efficient thing I can think of is working out right after
> getting up, and then eating my breakfeast afterwards, but the thought
> of working out on an empty tank just frightens me but perhaps I'm
> being unreasonable. Conversely, the thought of eating breakfeast and
> sitting around for at least an hour before working out doesn't sound
> like it will work either. I absolutely have to get back to a
> consistent schedule, so I'm willing to try numerous things with the
> least appealing being getting up earlier. :-) I'd love to hear what
> other morning workout people do and what your routines are like.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions.

I think:

1.5 hours is lots of time if you get with it.

BE SURE to eat first.

Start slow or you won't stay with it.

Use you're time smart 10 seconds between set's and 30 seconds between parts
and stay after it.

You can get a full "good" workout in an hour if you will do it.

Then get a nice hot shower and go to work happy!

Burr

Big, Lean, Mean & Clean

Subs. Iron Mind 20 yrs.

I hope you guys doing all the talking have a nice three or four day routine.

One guy sounds like it works out and some others don't seem to know what the
hell they are talking about!!!!!


Burr

Big, Lean, Mean & Clean

Subs. Iron Mind 20 yrs.

Dnia Mon, 08 Oct 2007 o 04:58 GMT Ruiseart agus Ceit napisa³(a):
>>
>> This is quite a nonsense. Really. Training breaks down muscles. The
>> harder you train, the more muscles will be broken, so if your energy
>> tanks are full, and you have a good workout, your body will break down
>> more muscle protein than if you are sleepy and hungry.
>
> I think you missed the point of my post, which is, if one trains on an empty
> stomach, then the body tries to use muscle protein for fuel, instead of the
> carbs absorbed from a good breakfast.

Primary source of energy is glucose and glycogen. If you use them up,
you'll feel very week, and not be able to continue a workout. Secondary
source of energy is fat, not protein. After an hour of endurance
training at 75% of VO2max you still fuel yourself primarily with carbs
(75%) and the rest comes from fat (25%). No place for protein, it
seems, especially for a strength trainee, who's nowhere near his
VO2max.

>> And you seem to be totally unaware, that rebuilding those broken muscles
>> happens mostly at night, when you sleep. Definitely _not_ during
>> training.
>
> I am not unaware of that at all. I wasn't talking about rebuilding broken
> muscles. I was talking about providing the body with fuel for the workout.

Even if you are on a low carb diet, you'll still have quite a tankfull
of fuel in you.

>> Full body workouts aren't short.
>
> They can be short or long, depending on what the objectives are. My own
> full-body workouts take about 1.5 hours,

See? Them beasts are often big...

> however, when I don't have a lot of
> time I simply perform a few compound exercises that use all the major muscle
> groups. It's very possible to thoroughly hammer the entire body in 30mins.

Do you think you'll need your pre-workout snack to get you through 30
minutes of activity?

>>> Keep it very simple and use only compound exercises. By
>>> doing so you can get your whole body done on minimal exercises. For
>>> example,
>>> squats, chins and dips or power clean/ press and deadlifts etc.
>>
>> Five exercises in four days (including days off). What if one did
>> squats one day, chin&dip next day, clean&press third day and then
>> deadlift? Now you have the same exercises evenly spread over four days
>> period. You need less time every day and you create a _habit_ of
>> training. It's like washing your teeth, after a while.
>
> Of course that would be fine. However, I personally feel that full body
> workouts get the best results.

Full body workouts mostly mean, that you'll stick to no-nonsense
exercises instead of doing concetration side-kick laterals or some such.
They also often result in high frequency of muscle stimulation. Nothing
wrong with them, but they aren't be all end all of strength training.

>> Training days and days-off fit some people, especially if you have to
>> invest a lot of time into dressing for gym, getting to a gym, working
>> out, waiting for equipment, socializing, getting home, taking a shower,
>> whatever else. If you can simply grab a bar and do your training,
>> trade offs look differently. Also, you'll need days-off if you use
>> full body workouts, but full body workouts aren't mandatory.
>
> Of course they're not mandatory. I just prefer them and feel that short
> (ish) full body workouts, on Mon/Wed/Fri work very well. It's a time tested
> method that is sadly overlooked in these modern times of split routines and
> gross over training.

Modern times of split routines? You can't be that old... ;-)

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Ruiseart agus Ceit" <ravenswingmusic@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:47099ce6$0$6925$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...
>>> Not "unreasonable" at all. Training on an empty stomach isn't a good
>>> thing
>>> to do; it can cause your body to start breaking down muscle protein.
>>
>> This is quite a nonsense. Really. Training breaks down muscles. The
>> harder you train, the more muscles will be broken, so if your energy
>> tanks are full, and you have a good workout, your body will break down
>> more muscle protein than if you are sleepy and hungry.
>
> I think you missed the point of my post, which is, if one trains on an
> empty stomach, then the body tries to use muscle protein for fuel, instead
> of the carbs absorbed from a good breakfast.
>

Your point is simply wrong. Your body is not going to try to use protein for
energy in this situation. As a matter of fact, there have been a # of
studies that show training on an empty stomach in the AM can help the
natural release of GH. If I train in the AM, I would only take a small
amount of simple sugar if anything at all. Cafeine and ephedrine work well
too.


>> And you seem to be totally unaware, that rebuilding those broken muscles
>> happens mostly at night, when you sleep. Definitely _not_ during
>> training.
>
> I am not unaware of that at all. I wasn't talking about rebuilding broken
> muscles. I was talking about providing the body with fuel for the workout.

Your muscles will have more then enough glycogen to supply your muscles from
previous meals. It is a long a elaborate cycle for your body to break down
muscle for energy.


>
>> Full body workouts aren't short.
>
> They can be short or long, depending on what the objectives are. My own
> full-body workouts take about 1.5 hours, however, when I don't have a lot
> of time I simply perform a few compound exercises that use all the major
> muscle groups. It's very possible to thoroughly hammer the entire body in
> 30mins.
>
>>> Keep it very simple and use only compound exercises. By
>>> doing so you can get your whole body done on minimal exercises. For
>>> example,
>>> squats, chins and dips or power clean/ press and deadlifts etc.
>>
>> Five exercises in four days (including days off). What if one did
>> squats one day, chin&dip next day, clean&press third day and then
>> deadlift? Now you have the same exercises evenly spread over four days
>> period. You need less time every day and you create a _habit_ of
>> training. It's like washing your teeth, after a while.
>
> Of course that would be fine. However, I personally feel that full body
> workouts get the best results. I've used split routines many times however
> I always return to my old favourite.

You must never have trained hard in your life. There is no way a well
trained individual is going to be able to get good results for a long period
of time doing full body work outs. You can stay in basic, "good" condition,
but you will never look like most people want to look by staying with full
body workouts. The only time I have used them was after a long period of non
training. You simply can not get enough sets/body part without being in the
gym for 10 hours.


>
>> Training days and days-off fit some people, especially if you have to
>> invest a lot of time into dressing for gym, getting to a gym, working
>> out, waiting for equipment, socializing, getting home, taking a shower,
>> whatever else. If you can simply grab a bar and do your training,
>> trade offs look differently. Also, you'll need days-off if you use
>> full body workouts, but full body workouts aren't mandatory.
>
> Of course they're not mandatory. I just prefer them and feel that short
> (ish) full body workouts, on Mon/Wed/Fri work very well. It's a time
> tested method that is sadly overlooked in these modern times of split
> routines and gross over training.
>
> Ruiseart.
>

Wow, I love your ludicrously over the top pigeon holing of split routines.
"Your" method of training is not used because it does not work well with
well trained individuals who are looking to get bigger and stronger. If you
want to be an average Schmoe with a 32" waist etc. have fun. You are
rationalizing for your lack of results.




--
Robert Schuh
"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
- Nietzsche

http://www.hardbopdrums.com/

"Burr" <pitzradio@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cmhOi.165$TF.86@newsfe13.lga...
>I hope you guys doing all the talking have a nice three or four day
>routine.
>
> One guy sounds like it works out and some others don't seem to know what
> the hell they are talking about!!!!!
>
>
> Burr
>
> Big, Lean, Mean & Clean
>
> Subs. Iron Mind 20 yrs.
>
>


I alternate between 2 different splits and have been using them on myself
and others for years with great results. I've always liked the 3 day on, one
day off set up. I will use a chest/shoulders/tris, legs, back/bis, rest for
one period, then I will switch to a chest/back, legs, shoulders/arms, rest
for another period. I will switch these every 3 or 4 months. The only time I
use full body work outs is if I have not trained for an extended period of
time. I also keep my work outs brief this way. I only do 2 exercises/body
part, 4 sets each, so for instance, on chest and back day, I only have 16
sets total. I like to train fairly quickly, so none of these takes me much
time in the gym. Get in and out!! Your diet is going to make the biggest
difference! :-)




--
Robert Schuh
"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
- Nietzsche

http://www.hardbopdrums.com/

"Andrzej Rosa" <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fecbdu$398$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
> Dnia Mon, 08 Oct 2007 o 04:58 GMT Ruiseart agus Ceit napisa³(a):
>>>
>>> This is quite a nonsense. Really. Training breaks down muscles. The
>>> harder you train, the more muscles will be broken, so if your energy
>>> tanks are full, and you have a good workout, your body will break down
>>> more muscle protein than if you are sleepy and hungry.
>>
>> I think you missed the point of my post, which is, if one trains on an
>> empty
>> stomach, then the body tries to use muscle protein for fuel, instead of
>> the
>> carbs absorbed from a good breakfast.
>
> Primary source of energy is glucose and glycogen. If you use them up,
> you'll feel very week, and not be able to continue a workout. Secondary
> source of energy is fat, not protein. After an hour of endurance
> training at 75% of VO2max you still fuel yourself primarily with carbs
> (75%) and the rest comes from fat (25%). No place for protein, it
> seems, especially for a strength trainee, who's nowhere near his
> VO2max.
>
>>> And you seem to be totally unaware, that rebuilding those broken muscles
>>> happens mostly at night, when you sleep. Definitely _not_ during
>>> training.
>>
>> I am not unaware of that at all. I wasn't talking about rebuilding broken
>> muscles. I was talking about providing the body with fuel for the
>> workout.
>
> Even if you are on a low carb diet, you'll still have quite a tankfull
> of fuel in you.
>
>>> Full body workouts aren't short.
>>
>> They can be short or long, depending on what the objectives are. My own
>> full-body workouts take about 1.5 hours,
>
> See? Them beasts are often big...
>
>> however, when I don't have a lot of
>> time I simply perform a few compound exercises that use all the major
>> muscle
>> groups. It's very possible to thoroughly hammer the entire body in
>> 30mins.
>
> Do you think you'll need your pre-workout snack to get you through 30
> minutes of activity?
>
>>>> Keep it very simple and use only compound exercises. By
>>>> doing so you can get your whole body done on minimal exercises. For
>>>> example,
>>>> squats, chins and dips or power clean/ press and deadlifts etc.
>>>
>>> Five exercises in four days (including days off). What if one did
>>> squats one day, chin&dip next day, clean&press third day and then
>>> deadlift? Now you have the same exercises evenly spread over four days
>>> period. You need less time every day and you create a _habit_ of
>>> training. It's like washing your teeth, after a while.
>>
>> Of course that would be fine. However, I personally feel that full body
>> workouts get the best results.
>
> Full body workouts mostly mean, that you'll stick to no-nonsense
> exercises instead of doing concetration side-kick laterals or some such.
> They also often result in high frequency of muscle stimulation. Nothing
> wrong with them, but they aren't be all end all of strength training.
>
>>> Training days and days-off fit some people, especially if you have to
>>> invest a lot of time into dressing for gym, getting to a gym, working
>>> out, waiting for equipment, socializing, getting home, taking a shower,
>>> whatever else. If you can simply grab a bar and do your training,
>>> trade offs look differently. Also, you'll need days-off if you use
>>> full body workouts, but full body workouts aren't mandatory.
>>
>> Of course they're not mandatory. I just prefer them and feel that short
>> (ish) full body workouts, on Mon/Wed/Fri work very well. It's a time
>> tested
>> method that is sadly overlooked in these modern times of split routines
>> and
>> gross over training.
>
> Modern times of split routines? You can't be that old... ;-)
>
> --
> Andrzej Rosa 1127R


Yeah, these "modern" times of split routines have only been around for 40
years or so!! ;-)





--
Robert Schuh
"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
- Nietzsche

http://www.hardbopdrums.com/

"Hard Bop Drums" wrote:

> Your point is simply wrong. Your body is not going to try to use protein
> for energy in this situation. As a matter of fact, there have been a # of
> studies that show training on an empty stomach in the AM can help the
> natural release of GH. If I train in the AM, I would only take a small
> amount of simple sugar if anything at all. Cafeine and ephedrine work well
> too.

> Your muscles will have more then enough glycogen to supply your muscles
> from previous meals. It is a long a elaborate cycle for your body to break
> down muscle for energy.

Rather than argue with you, I've included a short article from Clarence
Bass' website at the end of this post, which may be of interest. Read it or
not.

> You must never have trained hard in your life.

I have been training for over 40 years - 33 with weights. I train very hard
although I confess that I am not a body builder. My main training focus is
on strength and power (and general fitness). Having said that, I did spend
10 years or so bodybuilding but returned to my current type of training, as
I found that even though my muscles were growing my strength simply wasn't
keeping up.

>There is no way a well trained individual is going to be able to get good
>results for a long period of time doing full body work outs.

I (and many like me) are proof that full body workouts do work. The trick is
periodization.

>You can stay in basic, "good" condition, but you will never look like most
>people want to look by staying with full body workouts.

I agree that if one is only interested in looks then train as a bodybuilder.
If one wants functional strength however, then the training must suit.

>The only time I have used them was after a long period of non training. You
>simply can not get enough sets/body part without being in the gym for 10
>hours.

Yes you can; many do.

> Wow, I love your ludicrously over the top pigeon holing of split routines.
> "Your" method of training is not used because it does not work well with
> well trained individuals who are looking to get bigger and stronger. If
> you want to be an average Schmoe with a 32" waist etc. have fun. You are
> rationalizing for your lack of results.

I'm very happy with my results (both before and long after bodybuilding). If
people wish to use a split routine then fine. I am simply saying that they
don't suit my needs. Not everyone who uses weights is a bodybuilder.

From Clarence Bass:

Training on Empty: Good or Bad?

Q. Is training in the morning on an empty stomach more effective for burning
fat? Some well-known bodybuilding gurus recommend doing high-intensity
aerobics in the morning on an empty stomach to burn fat. Is this supported
by scientific fact, or is it bad advice?

A. That sounds logical, I know, but it's bad advice for two basic reasons.
The first is simply common sense: You will feel more like training if you
eat a small snack beforehand. It's important to enjoy your training, because
you're not likely to keep doing an activity that you find unpleasant. I
usually have a cup of instant coffee, made with one-third water and
two-thirds skim milk, and a teaspoon of canola oil (to slow absorption), and
a Tiger's Milk energy bar about 30 minutes before my workout. If you'd
prefer not to drink coffee and don't like energy bars, a glass of skim milk
and an apple would be fine. Avoid concentrated sugars which cause a spike in
your blood sugar - a candy bar or honey are no-nos - or eating so much that
you feel full and uncomfortable. Eat something small in volume and easily
digested; that's why I like a Tiger's Milk bar. I eat my main meal as soon
as possible after training. I'll explain why a little later.

The main reason for a pre-workout snack, however, is to supply your brain
with the energy it requires to function properly - and to avoid
cannibalizing your muscles.

All the different tissues of the body, including your muscles, use glucose,
blood sugar, for energy. Your brain, however, relies on glucose for energy
almost exclusively. If your blood glucose level falls, the brain cannot
function properly. The result is usually inability to concentrate, lethargy
and confusion, but in extreme circumstances can be blurred vision, shock,
and even death. For this reason, the body is programmed to maintain your
blood glucose level no matter what the cost. When you understand the
mechanism by which this is accomplished, you'll know why you should eat a
small snack before you exercise.

Most of the energy for a training session, weights or aerobics, come from
the glycogen stored in your muscles. The glycogen comes from what you have
eaten over the last several days, not your last meal. It takes a day or two
to restore the glycogen to depleted muscles. About 200 grams of glycogen can
be stored in your muscles. Muscle glycogen, however, is no help to your
brain. As Lawrence E. Lamb, M.D., explained some time ago in The Health
Letter, muscle glycogen has to be used by your muscles for energy; it can't
get out of the muscles to raise your blood sugar. So where does the glucose
for your brain come from?

First, it comes from the glucose contained in your circulating blood. This,
however, is only about 20 grams and doesn't last long. Next, it comes from
the breakdown of glycogen to glucose in the liver; that's about 70 grams.
The glucose in your circulating blood and that stored in your liver,
according to Dr. Lamb, is enough to tide your brain over during the night,
but that's about it. When you get up in the morning the body must look
elsewhere to supply glucose to your brain. Unfortunately, if you don't eat,
the source of supply is body protein -- not the fat stored on your body.

As you probably know, extra calories from any source, carbohydrate, protein
or fat, are stored as fat. "The catch," says Dr. Lamb, "is that this is a
one-way street." Fat cannot be used to form glucose. Under normal
circumstances, body fat can't supply the needs of the brain. (After about
two days of starvation body fat can provide energy to the brain, but that's
clearly not acceptable for our purposes.)

After blood glucose and liver glycogen are used up, the body turns not to
fat tissue, but to protein to maintain the blood glucose level. The
mechanism is called gluconeogenesis, the manufacture of new glucose. Your
liver does the job. It strips the nitrogen from body protein to form
glucose. In other words, protein from skeletal muscles and other body
structures is used to maintain your blood glucose level.

Dr. Lamb summed it up like this: "In the morning, after an overnight fast,
your body has already switched to converting amino acids to glucose. That is
one reason why some carbohydrate to support your blood sugar level early in
the morning is important. That can help conserve the cell protein, such as
found in your muscles."

So, training in the morning on empty, without eating, is a bad idea. The
result is exactly the opposite of that desired. Rather than encourage the
burning of fat, if forces your body to burn hard-earned muscle.

To the best of my knowledge, Dr. Lamb's comments are still state-of-the-art.
I have yet to hear any authoritative opinion to the contrary. Until I do, I
plan to continue eating a pre-workout snack..

I promised to tell you why I eat a full meal shortly after training.
Glycogen replacement is more than twice as great if you eat soon after
exercising than if you wait two hours. It's important to take advantage of
that window of opportunity to replenish the glycogen stored in your muscles.
Otherwise, the calories consumed may be deposited as fat. As explained on
our products page, my favorite post-workout meal is our High Protein
Oatmeal. I add mixed vegetables and fruit to the oatmeal and top with skim
milk or a multigrain beverage.

I've had many questions on this topic. I hope this clears up the confusion
about eating a pre-workout snack."

Ruiseart.

Dnia Mon, 08 Oct 2007 o 10:30 GMT Ruiseart agus Ceit napisa³(a):
> "Hard Bop Drums" wrote:
[...]
>>You can stay in basic, "good" condition, but you will never look like most
>>people want to look by staying with full body workouts.
>
> I agree that if one is only interested in looks then train as a bodybuilder.
> If one wants functional strength however, then the training must suit.

Contemporary strongmen use split routines almost exclusively. You can't
train pressing, pulling, speed, grip and ability to support heavy loads
in one training session _well_. Powerlifters use split routines too,
for similar reasons. You are coming from wrong assumption, that only
bodybuilders use split routines. Actually all strength athletes use
them (but not all football players, who aren't strength athletes).

> From Clarence Bass:
[...]
> you're not likely to keep doing an activity that you find unpleasant. I
> usually have a cup of instant coffee, made with one-third water and
> two-thirds skim milk, and a teaspoon of canola oil (to slow absorption), and
> a Tiger's Milk energy bar about 30 minutes before my workout. If you'd
> prefer not to drink coffee and don't like energy bars, a glass of skim milk
> and an apple would be fine. Avoid concentrated sugars which cause a spike in
> your blood sugar - a candy bar or honey are no-nos - or eating so much that
> you feel full and uncomfortable.

So Bass likes to take a _light_ snack 30 min before workout, and advises
against eating more than that? It doesn't look to me like "Eat your
breakfast before morning workout" approach.

> Eat something small in volume and easily
> digested; that's why I like a Tiger's Milk bar. I eat my main meal as soon
> as possible after training.

Oh, he even wrote, that he eats a real meal after workout! ;-)

[...]
--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

"Andrzej Rosa" wrote:

> Contemporary strongmen use split routines almost exclusively. You can't
> train pressing, pulling, speed, grip and ability to support heavy loads
> in one training session _well_.

You certainly can! Although, if you are training for contests, in specific
lifts, then I agree. I however use a full body routine because it suits my
needs well. For general strength it's great. You should read some of Pavel
Tsatsouline's stuff!

>Powerlifters use split routines too,
> for similar reasons. You are coming from wrong assumption, that only
> bodybuilders use split routines.

I don't think that at all.

>Actually all strength athletes use
> them

If they're training for specific events. I train for strength for a totally
different reason. I am not a competitive lifter.

>(but not all football players, who aren't strength athletes).

Footballers (especially Rugby etc) are certainly strong athletes. As are
wrestlers and many others who often use full body routines. As I said, I'm
not talking about competition lifters, or competition bodybuilders.

Having said that, try to understand that I am not bagging split routines -
if people feel they suit their needs. All this has come about as a result of
my defending full body routines, which in my opinion are better for general
strength. I understand that this may not be the case for others but it is
for me and many others. The main thing is that one enjoys the routine. If it
works, do it. If it doesn't, don't.


>> From Clarence Bass:
> [...]
>> you're not likely to keep doing an activity that you find unpleasant. I
>> usually have a cup of instant coffee, made with one-third water and
>> two-thirds skim milk, and a teaspoon of canola oil (to slow absorption),
>> and
>> a Tiger's Milk energy bar about 30 minutes before my workout. If you'd
>> prefer not to drink coffee and don't like energy bars, a glass of skim
>> milk
>> and an apple would be fine. Avoid concentrated sugars which cause a spike
>> in
>> your blood sugar - a candy bar or honey are no-nos - or eating so much
>> that
>> you feel full and uncomfortable.

> So Bass likes to take a _light_ snack 30 min before workout, and advises
> against eating more than that? It doesn't look to me like "Eat your
> breakfast before morning workout" approach.

Once again you've missed my point. The original poster was asking for advice
re training early in the morning and I suggested having a small snack.
Personally, I'd rather eat a good breakfast and then wait until later in the
day. I wouldn't eat a big meal and then train straight away.

>> Eat something small in volume and easily
>> digested; that's why I like a Tiger's Milk bar. I eat my main meal as
>> soon
>> as possible after training.
>
> Oh, he even wrote, that he eats a real meal after workout! ;-)

As do I! I prefer to train in the middle of the afternoon, as by then I've
had two good meals. I feel at my strongest around 3.00pm. I then eat a good
dinner.

Ruiseart.

Dnia Mon, 08 Oct 2007 o 12:50 GMT Ruiseart agus Ceit napisa³(a):
> "Andrzej Rosa" wrote:
>
>>(but not all football players, who aren't strength athletes).
>
> Footballers (especially Rugby etc) are certainly strong athletes. As are
> wrestlers and many others who often use full body routines.

In addition to their sport specific training and competing. Often
in-season, mostly trying to maintain their strength. In the off season
many coaches train their athletes using some form of split.

> As I said, I'm
> not talking about competition lifters, or competition bodybuilders.
>
> Having said that, try to understand that I am not bagging split routines -
> if people feel they suit their needs. All this has come about as a result of
> my defending full body routines, which in my opinion are better for general
> strength.

Full body workouts in practice often will focus on lower body. It's
really hard to train details after heavy squats, deads, cleans or
whatever one starts his workout with. I agree, that in most cases this
approach will give good general strength. Legs are our powerhouse,
after all.

> I understand that this may not be the case for others but it is
> for me and many others. The main thing is that one enjoys the routine. If it
> works, do it. If it doesn't, don't.

Sure enough. Maintainability of a routine is single most important
factor.

[...]
>> So Bass likes to take a _light_ snack 30 min before workout, and advises
>> against eating more than that? It doesn't look to me like "Eat your
>> breakfast before morning workout" approach.
>
> Once again you've missed my point. The original poster was asking for advice
> re training early in the morning and I suggested having a small snack.
> Personally, I'd rather eat a good breakfast and then wait until later in the
> day. I wouldn't eat a big meal and then train straight away.

I didn't understand you here the first time.

[...]
--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

"Andrzej Rosa" wrote:

> I didn't understand you here the first time.

I admit to often being easy to misunderstand <grin>. I have enjoyed our
conversation though. Chatting to people with different views is how we learn
and I'm always happy to look at something from another angle

Ruiseart.

Ruiseart agus Ceit" <ravenswingmusic@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:4709eab1$0$7152$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...
> "Hard Bop Drums" wrote:
>
>> Your point is simply wrong. Your body is not going to try to use protein
>> for energy in this situation. As a matter of fact, there have been a # of
>> studies that show training on an empty stomach in the AM can help the
>> natural release of GH. If I train in the AM, I would only take a small
>> amount of simple sugar if anything at all. Cafeine and ephedrine work
>> well too.
>
>> Your muscles will have more then enough glycogen to supply your muscles
>> from previous meals. It is a long a elaborate cycle for your body to
>> break down muscle for energy.
>
> Rather than argue with you, I've included a short article from Clarence
> Bass' website at the end of this post, which may be of interest. Read it
> or not.


LOL! Clarence Bass? Clarence has as much muscle on him as most AIDS
patients. He is a nice guy, but I'm not going to take his word for this. Why
not READ what I wrote about muscle glycogen stores? I've won many
bodybuilding shows and trained top pro bodybuilders and other pro athletes,
so let's say your ideas don't impress me. ;-)


>
>> You must never have trained hard in your life.
>
> I have been training for over 40 years - 33 with weights. I train very
> hard although I confess that I am not a body builder. My main training
> focus is on strength and power (and general fitness). Having said that, I
> did spend 10 years or so bodybuilding but returned to my current type of
> training, as I found that even though my muscles were growing my strength
> simply wasn't keeping up.
>
>>There is no way a well trained individual is going to be able to get good
>>results for a long period of time doing full body work outs.
>
> I (and many like me) are proof that full body workouts do work. The trick
> is periodization.
>
>>You can stay in basic, "good" condition, but you will never look like most
>>people want to look by staying with full body workouts.
>
> I agree that if one is only interested in looks then train as a
> bodybuilder. If one wants functional strength however, then the training
> must suit.
>
>>The only time I have used them was after a long period of non training.
>>You simply can not get enough sets/body part without being in the gym for
>>10 hours.
>
> Yes you can; many do.
>
>> Wow, I love your ludicrously over the top pigeon holing of split
>> routines. "Your" method of training is not used because it does not work
>> well with well trained individuals who are looking to get bigger and
>> stronger. If you want to be an average Schmoe with a 32" waist etc. have
>> fun. You are rationalizing for your lack of results.
>
> I'm very happy with my results (both before and long after bodybuilding).
> If people wish to use a split routine then fine. I am simply saying that
> they don't suit my needs. Not everyone who uses weights is a bodybuilder.
>
> From Clarence Bass:
>
> Training on Empty: Good or Bad?
>
> Q. Is training in the morning on an empty stomach more effective for
> burning fat? Some well-known bodybuilding gurus recommend doing
> high-intensity aerobics in the morning on an empty stomach to burn fat. Is
> this supported by scientific fact, or is it bad advice?
>
> A. That sounds logical, I know, but it's bad advice for two basic reasons.
> The first is simply common sense: You will feel more like training if you
> eat a small snack beforehand. It's important to enjoy your training,
> because you're not likely to keep doing an activity that you find
> unpleasant. I usually have a cup of instant coffee, made with one-third
> water and two-thirds skim milk, and a teaspoon of canola oil (to slow
> absorption), and a Tiger's Milk energy bar about 30 minutes before my
> workout. If you'd prefer not to drink coffee and don't like energy bars, a
> glass of skim milk and an apple would be fine. Avoid concentrated sugars
> which cause a spike in your blood sugar - a candy bar or honey are
> no-nos - or eating so much that you feel full and uncomfortable. Eat
> something small in volume and easily digested; that's why I like a Tiger's
> Milk bar. I eat my main meal as soon as possible after training. I'll
> explain why a little later.
>
> The main reason for a pre-workout snack, however, is to supply your brain
> with the energy it requires to function properly - and to avoid
> cannibalizing your muscles.
>
> All the different tissues of the body, including your muscles, use
> glucose, blood sugar, for energy. Your brain, however, relies on glucose
> for energy almost exclusively. If your blood glucose level falls, the
> brain cannot function properly. The result is usually inability to
> concentrate, lethargy and confusion, but in extreme circumstances can be
> blurred vision, shock, and even death. For this reason, the body is
> programmed to maintain your blood glucose level no matter what the cost.
> When you understand the mechanism by which this is accomplished, you'll
> know why you should eat a small snack before you exercise.
>
> Most of the energy for a training session, weights or aerobics, come from
> the glycogen stored in your muscles. The glycogen comes from what you have
> eaten over the last several days, not your last meal. It takes a day or
> two to restore the glycogen to depleted muscles. About 200 grams of
> glycogen can be stored in your muscles. Muscle glycogen, however, is no
> help to your brain. As Lawrence E. Lamb, M.D., explained some time ago in
> The Health Letter, muscle glycogen has to be used by your muscles for
> energy; it can't get out of the muscles to raise your blood sugar. So
> where does the glucose for your brain come from?
>
> First, it comes from the glucose contained in your circulating blood.
> This, however, is only about 20 grams and doesn't last long. Next, it
> comes from the breakdown of glycogen to glucose in the liver; that's about
> 70 grams. The glucose in your circulating blood and that stored in your
> liver, according to Dr. Lamb, is enough to tide your brain over during the
> night, but that's about it. When you get up in the morning the body must
> look elsewhere to supply glucose to your brain. Unfortunately, if you
> don't eat, the source of supply is body protein -- not the fat stored on
> your body.
>
> As you probably know, extra calories from any source, carbohydrate,
> protein or fat, are stored as fat. "The catch," says Dr. Lamb, "is that
> this is a one-way street." Fat cannot be used to form glucose. Under
> normal circumstances, body fat can't supply the needs of the brain. (After
> about two days of starvation body fat can provide energy to the brain, but
> that's clearly not acceptable for our purposes.)
>
> After blood glucose and liver glycogen are used up, the body turns not to
> fat tissue, but to protein to maintain the blood glucose level. The
> mechanism is called gluconeogenesis, the manufacture of new glucose. Your
> liver does the job. It strips the nitrogen from body protein to form
> glucose. In other words, protein from skeletal muscles and other body
> structures is used to maintain your blood glucose level.
>
> Dr. Lamb summed it up like this: "In the morning, after an overnight fast,
> your body has already switched to converting amino acids to glucose. That
> is one reason why some carbohydrate to support your blood sugar level
> early in the morning is important. That can help conserve the cell
> protein, such as found in your muscles."
>
> So, training in the morning on empty, without eating, is a bad idea. The
> result is exactly the opposite of that desired. Rather than encourage the
> burning of fat, if forces your body to burn hard-earned muscle.
>
> To the best of my knowledge, Dr. Lamb's comments are still
> state-of-the-art. I have yet to hear any authoritative opinion to the
> contrary. Until I do, I plan to continue eating a pre-workout snack..
>
> I promised to tell you why I eat a full meal shortly after training.
> Glycogen replacement is more than twice as great if you eat soon after
> exercising than if you wait two hours. It's important to take advantage of
> that window of opportunity to replenish the glycogen stored in your
> muscles. Otherwise, the calories consumed may be deposited as fat. As
> explained on our products page, my favorite post-workout meal is our High
> Protein Oatmeal. I add mixed vegetables and fruit to the oatmeal and top
> with skim milk or a multigrain beverage.
>
> I've had many questions on this topic. I hope this clears up the confusion
> about eating a pre-workout snack."
>
> Ruiseart.
>


It doesn't. 125 lb Clarence Bass is NOT a training nor diet "authority."
Just look at the guy! ;-)




--
Robert Schuh
"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
- Nietzsche

http://www.hardbopdrums.com/

"Ruiseart agus Ceit" <ravenswingmusic@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:470a0b73$0$1028$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...
> "Andrzej Rosa" wrote:
>
>> Contemporary strongmen use split routines almost exclusively. You can't
>> train pressing, pulling, speed, grip and ability to support heavy loads
>> in one training session _well_.
>
> You certainly can! Although, if you are training for contests, in specific
> lifts, then I agree. I however use a full body routine because it suits my
> needs well. For general strength it's great. You should read some of Pavel
> Tsatsouline's stuff!
>

That is what you should have said initinally. Your original statement was
that everyone who uses a split routine is grossly over training. I
specifically use a split to keep from over training.


>>Powerlifters use split routines too,
>> for similar reasons. You are coming from wrong assumption, that only
>> bodybuilders use split routines.
>
> I don't think that at all.
>
>>Actually all strength athletes use
>> them
>
> If they're training for specific events. I train for strength for a
> totally different reason. I am not a competitive lifter.
>
>>(but not all football players, who aren't strength athletes).
>
> Footballers (especially Rugby etc) are certainly strong athletes. As are
> wrestlers and many others who often use full body routines. As I said, I'm
> not talking about competition lifters, or competition bodybuilders.
>

He was talking about real football, not rugby.

> Having said that, try to understand that I am not bagging split routines -
> if people feel they suit their needs. All this has come about as a result
> of my defending full body routines, which in my opinion are better for
> general strength. I understand that this may not be the case for others
> but it is for me and many others. The main thing is that one enjoys the
> routine. If it works, do it. If it doesn't, don't.
>
>
>>> From Clarence Bass:
>> [...]
>>> you're not likely to keep doing an activity that you find unpleasant. I
>>> usually have a cup of instant coffee, made with one-third water and
>>> two-thirds skim milk, and a teaspoon of canola oil (to slow absorption),
>>> and
>>> a Tiger's Milk energy bar about 30 minutes before my workout. If you'd
>>> prefer not to drink coffee and don't like energy bars, a glass of skim
>>> milk
>>> and an apple would be fine. Avoid concentrated sugars which cause a
>>> spike in
>>> your blood sugar - a candy bar or honey are no-nos - or eating so much
>>> that
>>> you feel full and uncomfortable.
>
>> So Bass likes to take a _light_ snack 30 min before workout, and advises
>> against eating more than that? It doesn't look to me like "Eat your
>> breakfast before morning workout" approach.
>
> Once again you've missed my point. The original poster was asking for
> advice re training early in the morning and I suggested having a small
> snack. Personally, I'd rather eat a good breakfast and then wait until
> later in the day. I wouldn't eat a big meal and then train straight away.
>
>>> Eat something small in volume and easily
>>> digested; that's why I like a Tiger's Milk bar. I eat my main meal as
>>> soon
>>> as possible after training.
>>
>> Oh, he even wrote, that he eats a real meal after workout! ;-)
>
> As do I! I prefer to train in the middle of the afternoon, as by then I've
> had two good meals. I feel at my strongest around 3.00pm. I then eat a
> good dinner.
>
> Ruiseart.
>
>
>

Please stop referencing Clarence Bass. No one will take you seriously.




--
Robert Schuh
"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
- Nietzsche

http://www.hardbopdrums.com/

Dnia Mon, 08 Oct 2007 o 20:54 GMT Hard Bop Drums napisa³(a):
>
> "Ruiseart agus Ceit" <ravenswingmusic@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
>>
>>>(but not all football players, who aren't strength athletes).
>>
>> Footballers (especially Rugby etc) are certainly strong athletes. As are
>> wrestlers and many others who often use full body routines. As I said, I'm
>> not talking about competition lifters, or competition bodybuilders.
>
> He was talking about real football, not rugby.

Actually, I was talking about American football, not about real
football. ;-)

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

"Hard Bop Drums" wrote:

> Please stop referencing Clarence Bass. No one will take you seriously.

Perhaps not if they are only interested in developing massive muscles (with
debatable functionality), on training programs that are popularised by
people who use (or have used) steroids. However, for sound training and
nutritional advice, the man knows his stuff.

Ruiseart.
--
Ruiseart Alcorn - Celtic folk/rock music
http://www.myspace.com/ruiseartalcorn

"Hard Bop Drums" wrote:

> LOL! Clarence Bass? Clarence has as much muscle on him as most AIDS
> patients. He is a nice guy, but I'm not going to take his word for this.
> Why not READ what I wrote about muscle glycogen stores? I've won many
> bodybuilding shows and trained top pro bodybuilders and other pro
> athletes, so let's say your ideas don't impress me. ;-)

My ideas have developed over years of natural training, purely for the
purpose of developing functional strength. You are primarily interested in
bodybuilding for the purpose of developing a particular look, and have an
admitted history of steroid use. I don't juge; each to their own. We both
use weights for different reasons, and in different ways

> It doesn't. 125 lb Clarence Bass is NOT a training nor diet "authority."
> Just look at the guy! ;-)

He doesn't train for size. Perhaps you should judge him for his knowledge
and not because he has a "look" that you don't like.

Ruiseart.
--
Ruiseart Alcorn - Celtic folk/rock music
http://www.myspace.com/ruiseartalcorn