Re: "Illegals push you off the sidewalks, ram your cars and speed through red lights and stop signs while honking their horns like they did in Mexico..."

Don Gabacho wrote:
> Droves say goodbye to Golden State
>
> By Mike Swift
>
> San Jose Mercury News
>
> (MCT)
>
> SAN JOSE, Calif. - Wayne Brown gave up $40,000 in income to move from
> the Bay Area to Kansas. And he feels great.
>
> It got to be too much last year for the college information-technology
> officer: the commute to downtown San Francisco that sometimes took two
> hours, the housing-price spiral and the high-wire borrowing that paid
> for it.
>
> "I would find myself sitting in traffic," Brown recalled, "screaming at
> people."
>
> When the Kansas job came up in early 2005, Brown and his wife, Teresa,
> sold two Bay Area homes and happily settled in a suburb of Kansas City.
> They have never looked back.
>
> The Browns are an example of what demographers say appears to be an
> unprecedented phenomenon - even in a good economy, more people are
> leaving California for other states than are arriving from the rest of
> the country.
>
> Between 2004 and 2005, the migration flow into California from the
> other 49 states started flowing the other way. Data from the state
> Department of Finance shows that, for the first time this decade, more
> people left California in 2005 for another state than the number who
> moved in. Mary Heim, a finance department demographer, says this
> particular kind of outflow will continue for the foreseeable future.
>
> Unlike the tens of thousands who left Silicon Valley following the tech
> bust earlier this decade, the new migration is about the quest for
> something besides a job: a better quality of life at a lower cost of
> living.
>
> For 150 years, California has been seen as the Golden State of
> opportunity and freedom for millions of migrating Americans. Other than
> recessions in the 1970s and 1990s, and possibly wars, "I don't know if
> California would ever have been in a position where it was losing
> people to other states," said Hans Johnson, a demographer with the
> Public Policy Institute of California. "This is very new and very
> different."
>
> That doesn't mean California has lost its luster as a beacon for the
> nation's dreams. The flow of people to other states is small. And as
> the most populous state and the capital of the West, California is
> experiencing an out-migration that is more about maturation than
> decline, historians and economists say. California's population of 37
> million people is still growing, because of a surplus of births over
> deaths and because of foreign immigration.
>
> "What California was in the 1960s and 1970s - a place of growth and
> expansion - that California formula has been taken to so many other
> places" in the Sunbelt, said Kevin Starr, a history professor at the
> University of Southern California who specializes in the state's
> history.
>
> Increasingly, the coast from San Diego to the Bay Area is like the
> Upper East Side of Manhattan, Starr said, a place that selects the most
> talented and wealthy. "It's become an extremely competitive and elite
> society," he said.
>
> The most common destinations for departing Californians in recent years
> are five Western states - Arizona, Nevada, Texas, Washington and
> Oregon, IRS data show.
>
> "It's to some extent a continuation of a really old California story,
> which is that California helps populate the rest of the West," said
> James N. Gregory, a historian at the University of Washington who
> studies Western migration. "It has been sending people to its
> neighboring states for 150 years."
>
> As far back as the Comstock Lode in 1859, when the discovery of silver
> sent miners swarming into Nevada, California has been a primary source
> of the white population of many of the Western states.
>
> Just as "Las Vegas was a creation of Los Angeles ... Seattle to some
> extent always was a colony of San Francisco," Gregory said. "As the
> most populous state in the country for almost half a century now,
> there's a kind of inevitable slowing down of growth, and so many people
> there are available to move to other places."
>
> A new group has joined that movement in recent years.
>
> The flow of Latinos out of California is fueling a Latino diaspora
> across the United States. This movement, which began in the mid-1990s,
> has grown into a full-fledged phenomenon, populating places such as the
> Northeast, Midwest and South, where Mexican-Americans only recently
> have lived in significant numbers. Johnson's analysis of census data
> shows that between 2000 and 2005, about 320,000 more Latinos left
> California than arrived from other states.
>
> Latinos now "see opportunity in a different part of the country, as
> opposed to the historically primary areas (of migration), such as Los
> Angeles or San Jose," said Albert M. Camarillo, a Stanford University
> history professor who studies Latino immigration.
>
> In addition to Latinos, whites and African-Americans also are migrating
> out of California. Those leaving, according to Johnson, tend to have
> higher incomes and be older than those arriving from other states. The
> only ethnic group to have more people move into California than leave
> are Asians.
>
> A flow of migrants to other states is not a worry in and of itself - if
> foreign immigration provides a pool of highly educated workers to
> replace them. A bigger worry is that the state's exorbitant housing
> prices relative to the rest of the country could act as a brake to
> economic growth if employers can't find workers.
>
> "It's harder to keep people here; it's harder to attract people from
> abroad; it's harder to attract people domestically," said Stephen Levy,
> director of the Center for Continuing Study of the California Economy
> in Palo Alto. "It's a huge potential barrier."
>
> Nearly half of California's homeowners spend more than 30 percent of
> their income on housing - significantly higher than in any other state,
> 2005 census data shows.
>
> "Families just can't make it in the housing market," said Dowell Myers,
> a professor of urban planning and demography at the University of
> Southern California. "Low-income families are being priced out of
> rentals, and middle-income families are being priced out of
> homeownership, and we don't know where they are going."
>
> Housing costs, including property taxes, also influence people who are
> more affluent. Stephen and Sarah Gallant moved back to Michigan this
> summer after nearly three years in Los Gatos, trading a $2 million
> house for one in Michigan that was about half the cost and double the
> size.
>
> "It was all about lifestyle," said Stephen Gallant, who left a job as
> chief financial officer for Global Motorsport Group in Morgan Hill so
> the couple and their two boys could move back to a Detroit suburb. "If
> I'm going to spend $1 million on a house as opposed to $2 million, that
> opens up a lot of purchasing power, the ability to go out and do other
> things."
>
> Johnson thinks there's another reason for California's out-migration.
> "There's also a racial component, I think, to the conversation."
>
> He notes the anger on www.city-data.com/forum/, a Web site for people
> considering a move to or from U.S. cities.
>
> "Illegals push you off the sidewalks, ram your cars and speed through
> red lights and stop signs while honking their horns like they did in
> Mexico, and refuse to even entertain the notion of ever learning
> English. Welcome to Los Angeles," reads one typical Southern
> Californian's posting.
>
> "This is why I (and thousands of other `Angelinos') are looking to move
> out of state. Call it `white flight' if you will ... but whatever
> happened to the good ol' days?" wrote another person on the string
> about illegal immigration.
>
> No one thinks the flow out of California in future years will be nearly
> as large as it was in the recession-plagued 1990s, or that California
> is headed toward becoming a version of the Midwestern Rust Belt, its
> commercial and human vitality draining away. But demographer Heim said
> there's no sign when the out-migration will stop.
>
> "Some of the people leaving are families with children because school
> enrollment is declining at a quicker pace than we'd projected," she
> said.
>
> In Silicon Valley, with many companies adding jobs, fewer people have
> left for other states in recent years. In 2005, the net outflow from
> Santa Clara County to other states was about 18,000 people - about half
> what it was in 2003, IRS data shows.
>
> Brown, who lived in Dublin before he moved to Kansas, believes he did
> well in spite of his pay cut because the cost of living is so much
> lower in the Kansas City suburb of Overland Park. He and his wife were
> able to cash out the equity in real estate they owned and get a jump on
> saving for retirement.
>
> Brown loved the Bay Area's weather, but much of the time he had to
> enjoy it stuck inside his car. On weekends, he and his wife were often
> too tired from work and commuting to take advantage of the Bay Area's
> cultural and recreational riches.
>
> "During the week, it was no life," Brown said. "And really there was no
> way to relieve stress from work; it just continued on in my life."

And the scumbags in Washington dare consider "Amnesty' for the illegal
alien
rodents.

ted

>
> And the scumbags in Washington dare consider "Amnesty' for the illegal
> alien
> rodents.
>
> ted

Did your ancestors have immigration papers?

Just wondering,
Tom

tedorn44@hotmail.com wrote:
> Don Gabacho wrote:
> > Droves say goodbye to Golden State
> >
> > By Mike Swift
> >
> > San Jose Mercury News
> >
> > (MCT)
> >
> > SAN JOSE, Calif. - Wayne Brown gave up $40,000 in income to move from
> > the Bay Area to Kansas. And he feels great.
> >
> > It got to be too much last year for the college information-technology
> > officer: the commute to downtown San Francisco that sometimes took two
> > hours, the housing-price spiral and the high-wire borrowing that paid
> > for it.
> >
> > "I would find myself sitting in traffic," Brown recalled, "screaming at
> > people."
> >
> > When the Kansas job came up in early 2005, Brown and his wife, Teresa,
> > sold two Bay Area homes and happily settled in a suburb of Kansas City.
> > They have never looked back.
> >
> > The Browns are an example of what demographers say appears to be an
> > unprecedented phenomenon - even in a good economy, more people are
> > leaving California for other states than are arriving from the rest of
> > the country.
> >
> > Between 2004 and 2005, the migration flow into California from the
> > other 49 states started flowing the other way. Data from the state
> > Department of Finance shows that, for the first time this decade, more
> > people left California in 2005 for another state than the number who
> > moved in. Mary Heim, a finance department demographer, says this
> > particular kind of outflow will continue for the foreseeable future.
> >
> > Unlike the tens of thousands who left Silicon Valley following the tech
> > bust earlier this decade, the new migration is about the quest for
> > something besides a job: a better quality of life at a lower cost of
> > living.
> >
> > For 150 years, California has been seen as the Golden State of
> > opportunity and freedom for millions of migrating Americans. Other than
> > recessions in the 1970s and 1990s, and possibly wars, "I don't know if
> > California would ever have been in a position where it was losing
> > people to other states," said Hans Johnson, a demographer with the
> > Public Policy Institute of California. "This is very new and very
> > different."
> >
> > That doesn't mean California has lost its luster as a beacon for the
> > nation's dreams. The flow of people to other states is small. And as
> > the most populous state and the capital of the West, California is
> > experiencing an out-migration that is more about maturation than
> > decline, historians and economists say. California's population of 37
> > million people is still growing, because of a surplus of births over
> > deaths and because of foreign immigration.
> >
> > "What California was in the 1960s and 1970s - a place of growth and
> > expansion - that California formula has been taken to so many other
> > places" in the Sunbelt, said Kevin Starr, a history professor at the
> > University of Southern California who specializes in the state's
> > history.
> >
> > Increasingly, the coast from San Diego to the Bay Area is like the
> > Upper East Side of Manhattan, Starr said, a place that selects the most
> > talented and wealthy. "It's become an extremely competitive and elite
> > society," he said.
> >
> > The most common destinations for departing Californians in recent years
> > are five Western states - Arizona, Nevada, Texas, Washington and
> > Oregon, IRS data show.
> >
> > "It's to some extent a continuation of a really old California story,
> > which is that California helps populate the rest of the West," said
> > James N. Gregory, a historian at the University of Washington who
> > studies Western migration. "It has been sending people to its
> > neighboring states for 150 years."
> >
> > As far back as the Comstock Lode in 1859, when the discovery of silver
> > sent miners swarming into Nevada, California has been a primary source
> > of the white population of many of the Western states.
> >
> > Just as "Las Vegas was a creation of Los Angeles ... Seattle to some
> > extent always was a colony of San Francisco," Gregory said. "As the
> > most populous state in the country for almost half a century now,
> > there's a kind of inevitable slowing down of growth, and so many people
> > there are available to move to other places."
> >
> > A new group has joined that movement in recent years.
> >
> > The flow of Latinos out of California is fueling a Latino diaspora
> > across the United States. This movement, which began in the mid-1990s,
> > has grown into a full-fledged phenomenon, populating places such as the
> > Northeast, Midwest and South, where Mexican-Americans only recently
> > have lived in significant numbers. Johnson's analysis of census data
> > shows that between 2000 and 2005, about 320,000 more Latinos left
> > California than arrived from other states.
> >
> > Latinos now "see opportunity in a different part of the country, as
> > opposed to the historically primary areas (of migration), such as Los
> > Angeles or San Jose," said Albert M. Camarillo, a Stanford University
> > history professor who studies Latino immigration.
> >
> > In addition to Latinos, whites and African-Americans also are migrating
> > out of California. Those leaving, according to Johnson, tend to have
> > higher incomes and be older than those arriving from other states. The
> > only ethnic group to have more people move into California than leave
> > are Asians.
> >
> > A flow of migrants to other states is not a worry in and of itself - if
> > foreign immigration provides a pool of highly educated workers to
> > replace them. A bigger worry is that the state's exorbitant housing
> > prices relative to the rest of the country could act as a brake to
> > economic growth if employers can't find workers.
> >
> > "It's harder to keep people here; it's harder to attract people from
> > abroad; it's harder to attract people domestically," said Stephen Levy,
> > director of the Center for Continuing Study of the California Economy
> > in Palo Alto. "It's a huge potential barrier."
> >
> > Nearly half of California's homeowners spend more than 30 percent of
> > their income on housing - significantly higher than in any other state,
> > 2005 census data shows.
> >
> > "Families just can't make it in the housing market," said Dowell Myers,
> > a professor of urban planning and demography at the University of
> > Southern California. "Low-income families are being priced out of
> > rentals, and middle-income families are being priced out of
> > homeownership, and we don't know where they are going."
> >
> > Housing costs, including property taxes, also influence people who are
> > more affluent. Stephen and Sarah Gallant moved back to Michigan this
> > summer after nearly three years in Los Gatos, trading a $2 million
> > house for one in Michigan that was about half the cost and double the
> > size.
> >
> > "It was all about lifestyle," said Stephen Gallant, who left a job as
> > chief financial officer for Global Motorsport Group in Morgan Hill so
> > the couple and their two boys could move back to a Detroit suburb. "If
> > I'm going to spend $1 million on a house as opposed to $2 million, that
> > opens up a lot of purchasing power, the ability to go out and do other
> > things."
> >
> > Johnson thinks there's another reason for California's out-migration.
> > "There's also a racial component, I think, to the conversation."
> >
> > He notes the anger on www.city-data.com/forum/, a Web site for people
> > considering a move to or from U.S. cities.
> >
> > "Illegals push you off the sidewalks, ram your cars and speed through
> > red lights and stop signs while honking their horns like they did in
> > Mexico, and refuse to even entertain the notion of ever learning
> > English. Welcome to Los Angeles," reads one typical Southern
> > Californian's posting.
> >
> > "This is why I (and thousands of other `Angelinos') are looking to move
> > out of state. Call it `white flight' if you will ... but whatever
> > happened to the good ol' days?" wrote another person on the string
> > about illegal immigration.
> >
> > No one thinks the flow out of California in future years will be nearly
> > as large as it was in the recession-plagued 1990s, or that California
> > is headed toward becoming a version of the Midwestern Rust Belt, its
> > commercial and human vitality draining away. But demographer Heim said
> > there's no sign when the out-migration will stop.
> >
> > "Some of the people leaving are families with children because school
> > enrollment is declining at a quicker pace than we'd projected," she
> > said.
> >
> > In Silicon Valley, with many companies adding jobs, fewer people have
> > left for other states in recent years. In 2005, the net outflow from
> > Santa Clara County to other states was about 18,000 people - about half
> > what it was in 2003, IRS data shows.
> >
> > Brown, who lived in Dublin before he moved to Kansas, believes he did
> > well in spite of his pay cut because the cost of living is so much
> > lower in the Kansas City suburb of Overland Park. He and his wife were
> > able to cash out the equity in real estate they owned and get a jump on
> > saving for retirement.
> >
> > Brown loved the Bay Area's weather, but much of the time he had to
> > enjoy it stuck inside his car. On weekends, he and his wife were often
> > too tired from work and commuting to take advantage of the Bay Area's
> > cultural and recreational riches.
> >
> > "During the week, it was no life," Brown said. "And really there was no
> > way to relieve stress from work; it just continued on in my life."
>
> And the scumbags in Washington dare consider "Amnesty' for the illegal
> alien rodents.

You stupid shit-4-braincell fat fuck. The anti-immigrant sentiment is
one tiny component of what's making some people leave California.

Don't let the gate hit you on your pimply lard ass on the way out,
shitbag.

In article <1165863267.630802.296700@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>,
"Tom" <drsoong@aol.com> wrote:

> >
> > And the scumbags in Washington dare consider
> > "Amnesty' for the illegal alien rodents.

> Did your ancestors have immigration papers?

Actually, yes. Mine did. Because they obeyed the law.

tedorn44@hotmail.com wrote:
[...]

> > For 150 years, California has been seen as
> > the Golden State of opportunity and freedom
> > for millions of migrating Americans.
[...]

> > That doesn't mean California has lost its luster
> > as a beacon for the nation's dreams.
[...]

Or the nation's bodybuilders' dreams. I'm guessing that North Dakota
isn't exactly the beacon for physique and fitness competitors.

> > The most common destinations for departing
> > Californians in recent years are five Western
> > states - Arizona, Nevada, Texas, Washington
> > and Oregon, IRS data show.
[...]

What??? NOT Carlisle? Why it's so, well, so much LIKE California.

> > "Some of the people leaving are families with
> > children because school enrollment is declining
> > at a quicker pace than we'd projected<snip>

That statement flies in the face of reports I'd heard of 50 kids in a
regular classroom and 80 kids in a gym class. Attended a conference in
Atlanta in 2004. A phys ed teacher from California was lamenting those
numbers. Bet she's grateful for any newly-declining school enrollment.

--
Curt

BTR1701 wrote:
> In article <1165863267.630802.296700@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>,
> "Tom" <drsoong@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > >
> > > And the scumbags in Washington dare consider
> > > "Amnesty' for the illegal alien rodents.
>
> > Did your ancestors have immigration papers?
>
> Actually, yes. Mine did. Because they obeyed the law.


With all due respect, not all people who emigrated to America did so
illegally without papers. Did the pilgrims have papers? When did the
government start requiring immigration papers? Are those who came to
America before the government began requiring immigration papers
illegal immigrants?

BTW, I have American Indian ancestry in my family tree. Now I'm no
immigration law expert, but I'd wager American Indians didn't have
immigration papers. Does that make me an illegal alien rodent?

Tom

Tom wrote:
>
> Did your ancestors have immigration papers?
>

My ancestors came here before there was such a thing as
immigration papers. Heck, there wasn't even anything called
the U.S. when my ancestors came here.

Although they probably would have considered William Penn a
friend.


--
Life is a journey. You don't get to start at the end.

In article <1165892438.452918.116520@73g2000cwn.googlegroups. com>,
"Tom" <drsoong@aol.com> wrote:

> BTR1701 wrote:
> > In article <1165863267.630802.296700@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>,
> > "Tom" <drsoong@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >
> > > > And the scumbags in Washington dare consider
> > > > "Amnesty' for the illegal alien rodents.
> >
> > > Did your ancestors have immigration papers?
> >
> > Actually, yes. Mine did. Because they obeyed the law.
>
>
> When did the government start requiring immigration papers?

Who knows? But the papers were a requirement when my ancestors came here
(which was your question) and they had them.

> Are those who came to America before the government
> began requiring immigration papers illegal immigrants?

Well, the answer to that is obvious: no. Because there was no law
against it at that time. Hence it was not illegal. Once the law was
passed, it became illegal.

Things like this happen all the time. Things that were legal become
illegal when new laws are passed and vice versa.

There was once a time when cocaine and heroin were legal to possess and
use. Now they're not.

Alcohol was legal, then illegal, then legal again.

Same with immigration. It was once legal to just show up here. Now it's
not. Talking about Pilgrims in the context of 21st century immigration
law is an exercise in ridiculousness.

> BTW, I have American Indian ancestry in my family tree. Now I'm no
> immigration law expert, but I'd wager American Indians didn't have
> immigration papers. Does that make me an illegal alien rodent?

Did you fail your basic civics class in grade school? If you were born
in the USA, you're a citizen, regardless of your ethnic heritage.

BTR1701 wrote:
> In article <1165892438.452918.116520@73g2000cwn.googlegroups. com>,
> "Tom" <drsoong@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > BTR1701 wrote:
> > > In article <1165863267.630802.296700@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>,
> > > "Tom" <drsoong@aol.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And the scumbags in Washington dare consider
> > > > > "Amnesty' for the illegal alien rodents.
> > >
> > > > Did your ancestors have immigration papers?
> > >
> > > Actually, yes. Mine did. Because they obeyed the law.
> >
> >
> > When did the government start requiring immigration papers?
>
> Who knows? But the papers were a requirement when my ancestors came here
> (which was your question) and they had them.

I agree, but I was asking the OP. His opening salvo was so off the
charts that I thought the only way to get to him or her was to ask an
off the charts question.


>
> > Are those who came to America before the government
> > began requiring immigration papers illegal immigrants?
>
> Well, the answer to that is obvious: no. Because there was no law
> against it at that time. Hence it was not illegal. Once the law was
> passed, it became illegal.
>
> Things like this happen all the time. Things that were legal become
> illegal when new laws are passed and vice versa.
>
> There was once a time when cocaine and heroin were legal to possess and
> use. Now they're not.
>
> Alcohol was legal, then illegal, then legal again.
>
> Same with immigration. It was once legal to just show up here. Now it's
> not. Talking about Pilgrims in the context of 21st century immigration
> law is an exercise in ridiculousness.

Agreed on all points. As I wrote above, I was trying to confront the
ridiculous with the riduciulous.


>
> > BTW, I have American Indian ancestry in my family tree. Now I'm no
> > immigration law expert, but I'd wager American Indians didn't have
> > immigration papers. Does that make me an illegal alien rodent?
>
> Did you fail your basic civics class in grade school? If you were born
> in the USA, you're a citizen, regardless of your ethnic heritage.

Nope. I'd wager the OP would consider any non-white an illegal alien
rodent regardless of their place of birth.

Tom

Rudy Canoza wrote on alt.california:

> You stupid shit-4-braincell fat fuck. The anti-immigrant
> sentiment is one tiny component of what's making some people
> leave California.

Let's not look a gift horse in the mouth!

'rena

"Tom" <drsoong@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1165892438.452918.116520@73g2000cwn.googlegro ups.com...
>
> BTR1701 wrote:
>> In article <1165863267.630802.296700@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>,
>> "Tom" <drsoong@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> > >
>> > > And the scumbags in Washington dare consider
>> > > "Amnesty' for the illegal alien rodents.
>>
>> > Did your ancestors have immigration papers?
>>
>> Actually, yes. Mine did. Because they obeyed the law.
>
>
> With all due respect, not all people who emigrated to America did so
> illegally without papers. Did the pilgrims have papers? When did the
> government start requiring immigration papers? Are those who came to
> America before the government began requiring immigration papers
> illegal immigrants?

Umm... it is illegal now/today. To come here illegally means that you have
broken a law.

Puzz

> Did your ancestors have immigration papers?

This argument is so lame. No, my ancestors did not have immigration
papers. My ancestors came to this land, convinced its inhabitants that
there was economic benefit to their presence, and then methodically
displaced them over the course of several generations.

Those inhabitants now live in concentration camps, suffer from an
extremely high prevalence of alcoholism, and make their living on
loopholes in gambling law... all because they were moron chumps.

Other than white-guilt on a scale of pure self-hatred, how does history
possibly support the notion that we should emulate the chumps we got the
better of... rather than continuing to be the strong and crafty bastards
that we always have been?