Resumed training after 5 weeks off - still have elbow pain.

Hi All,

During the last 2 weeks I have resumed light training. The pain in the
biceps, brachialis and supinator regions has gone and there is no pain
during or after training so far. Doing reps in the 10-15 range, cutting out
hammer curls and leaving out supination during DB curls seems to be doing
the trick.

Unfortunately, I am still getting quite a bit of pain on the outside of my
elbows. It doesn't hurt during training but definitely hurts after training.
Even a shoulder workout seems to flair it up. I haven't re-introduced dips
or pull-ups yet and most of my training has been much lighter with reduced
sets (2 instead of 3). So I'm thinking there's something else going on?
Could this be related to the muscles used for gripping? Any thoughts?

It seems I have lost alot of strength in the biceps (~30%), but not that
much in chest, triceps and shoulders. In fact after 2 shoulder workouts, I
am doing the same weight in DB press as I was 8 weeks ago and with more reps
(15x18kg, 12x22kg, 10x28kg, 8x32kg). Today I did flat bench for the first
time in 2 months and managed to go very well I thought. I got a 4th set of
110kgx4 after 15x60kg, 10x80kg, 6x100kg. I didn't think I was going to get
100kg off the rack by the way my biceps had been effected. Does this sound
like I was possibly over-training the biceps?

Steph.

In news:es3s9g$aok$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
Stephan Carydakis <scarydakis@nospam.gmail.com> typed:
> Hi All,
>
> During the last 2 weeks I have resumed light training. The pain in
> the biceps, brachialis and supinator regions has gone and there is no
> pain during or after training so far. Doing reps in the 10-15 range,
> cutting out hammer curls and leaving out supination during DB curls
> seems to be doing the trick.
>
> Unfortunately, I am still getting quite a bit of pain on the outside
> of my elbows.

Above or below the nobbly bit?

> It doesn't hurt during training but definitely hurts
> after training. Even a shoulder workout seems to flair it up. I
> haven't re-introduced dips or pull-ups yet and most of my training
> has been much lighter with reduced sets (2 instead of 3). So I'm
> thinking there's something else going on? Could this be related to
> the muscles used for gripping? Any thoughts?
>
> It seems I have lost alot of strength in the biceps (~30%), but not
> that much in chest, triceps and shoulders. In fact after 2 shoulder
> workouts, I am doing the same weight in DB press as I was 8 weeks ago
> and with more reps (15x18kg, 12x22kg, 10x28kg, 8x32kg). Today I did
> flat bench for the first time in 2 months and managed to go very well
> I thought. I got a 4th set of 110kgx4 after 15x60kg, 10x80kg,
> 6x100kg. I didn't think I was going to get 100kg off the rack by the
> way my biceps had been effected. Does this sound like I was possibly
> over-training the biceps?
>
> Steph.



--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill

"Bully" <bully62@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in message
news:54lhhdF1uf5p5U1@mid.individual.net...
> In news:es3s9g$aok$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
> Stephan Carydakis <scarydakis@nospam.gmail.com> typed:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > During the last 2 weeks I have resumed light training. The pain in
> > the biceps, brachialis and supinator regions has gone and there is no
> > pain during or after training so far. Doing reps in the 10-15 range,
> > cutting out hammer curls and leaving out supination during DB curls
> > seems to be doing the trick.
> >
> > Unfortunately, I am still getting quite a bit of pain on the outside
> > of my elbows.
>
> Above or below the nobbly bit?

If you make a right angle with your arm, it is exactly on the boney sharp
bit. If massage it, I can feel what seems like tendon moving around. It also
hurts!

check out http://scarydakis.customer.netspace....pics/elbow.jpg
(PLEASE NOTE: that is not my arm)

<snip>

> >
> > Steph.
>
>
>
> --
> Bully
> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>
> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
> the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
>
>
Steph.

On Wed, 28 Feb 2007, Stephan Carydakis wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> During the last 2 weeks I have resumed light training. The pain in the
> biceps, brachialis and supinator regions has gone and there is no pain
> during or after training so far. Doing reps in the 10-15 range, cutting out
> hammer curls and leaving out supination during DB curls seems to be doing
> the trick.
>
> Unfortunately, I am still getting quite a bit of pain on the outside of my
> elbows. It doesn't hurt during training but definitely hurts after training.
> Even a shoulder workout seems to flair it up. I haven't re-introduced dips
> or pull-ups yet and most of my training has been much lighter with reduced
> sets (2 instead of 3). So I'm thinking there's something else going on?
> Could this be related to the muscles used for gripping? Any thoughts?
>
> It seems I have lost alot of strength in the biceps (~30%), but not that
> much in chest, triceps and shoulders. In fact after 2 shoulder workouts, I
> am doing the same weight in DB press as I was 8 weeks ago and with more reps
> (15x18kg, 12x22kg, 10x28kg, 8x32kg). Today I did flat bench for the first
> time in 2 months and managed to go very well I thought. I got a 4th set of
> 110kgx4 after 15x60kg, 10x80kg, 6x100kg. I didn't think I was going to get
> 100kg off the rack by the way my biceps had been effected. Does this sound
> like I was possibly over-training the biceps?
>
> Steph.

I got lateral epicondylitis from triceps exercises. What exercises are you
doing that involve elbow extension?

--Sir Jackery

"Stephan Carydakis" <scarydakis@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:es3s9g$aok$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
> Hi All,
>
> During the last 2 weeks I have resumed light training. The pain in
> the
> biceps, brachialis and supinator regions has gone and there is no pain
> during or after training so far. Doing reps in the 10-15 range,
> cutting out
> hammer curls and leaving out supination during DB curls seems to be
> doing
> the trick.
>
> Unfortunately, I am still getting quite a bit of pain on the outside
> of my
> elbows. It doesn't hurt during training but definitely hurts after
> training.
> Even a shoulder workout seems to flair it up. I haven't re-introduced
> dips
> or pull-ups yet and most of my training has been much lighter with
> reduced
> sets (2 instead of 3). So I'm thinking there's something else going
> on?
> Could this be related to the muscles used for gripping? Any thoughts?
>
> It seems I have lost alot of strength in the biceps (~30%), but not
> that
> much in chest, triceps and shoulders. In fact after 2 shoulder
> workouts, I
> am doing the same weight in DB press as I was 8 weeks ago and with
> more reps
> (15x18kg, 12x22kg, 10x28kg, 8x32kg). Today I did flat bench for the
> first
> time in 2 months and managed to go very well I thought. I got a 4th
> set of
> 110kgx4 after 15x60kg, 10x80kg, 6x100kg. I didn't think I was going to
> get
> 100kg off the rack by the way my biceps had been effected. Does this
> sound
> like I was possibly over-training the biceps?
>
> Steph.

It sounds like you need the exercise version of an elimination diet -
cut out all exercises that even remotely bother your elbow, and add them
back to your program slowly, one at a time. Start by finding one or two
exercises that don't bother you, hopefully fairly big, compound types,
and stick with them for at least a week or two before you add anything
else.

FWIW, I have known a couple of people with elbow problems for whom doing
grip work was OK, and they focused on things like closing the next size
C of C gripper for a few months, reporting that their arm strength was
at least somewhat maintained in the process.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

"Sir Jackery" <roehrig@cs.ucdavis.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.64.0702280818450.3890@pc30.cs.ucda vis.edu...
> On Wed, 28 Feb 2007, Stephan Carydakis wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> >

<snip>

> >
> > Unfortunately, I am still getting quite a bit of pain on the outside of
my
> > elbows. It doesn't hurt during training but definitely hurts after
training.
> > Even a shoulder workout seems to flair it up. I haven't re-introduced
dips
> > or pull-ups yet and most of my training has been much lighter with
reduced
> > sets (2 instead of 3). So I'm thinking there's something else going on?
> > Could this be related to the muscles used for gripping? Any thoughts?
> >

<snip>

> >
> > Steph.
>
> I got lateral epicondylitis from triceps exercises. What exercises are you
> doing that involve elbow extension?
>

OK. I did have tennis elbow about 10 years ago when I was a full-time
musician and did 4-5 gigs a week for 5.5years. At the moment I'm doing
ticeps press-down and skull crushers.

> --Sir Jackery

On Thu, 1 Mar 2007, Stephan Carydakis wrote:

>
> "Sir Jackery" <roehrig@cs.ucdavis.edu> wrote in message
> news:Pine.LNX.4.64.0702280818450.3890@pc30.cs.ucda vis.edu...
>> On Wed, 28 Feb 2007, Stephan Carydakis wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>
> <snip>
>
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, I am still getting quite a bit of pain on the outside of
> my
>>> elbows. It doesn't hurt during training but definitely hurts after
> training.
>>> Even a shoulder workout seems to flair it up. I haven't re-introduced
> dips
>>> or pull-ups yet and most of my training has been much lighter with
> reduced
>>> sets (2 instead of 3). So I'm thinking there's something else going on?
>>> Could this be related to the muscles used for gripping? Any thoughts?
>>>
>
> <snip>
>
>>>
>>> Steph.
>>
>> I got lateral epicondylitis from triceps exercises. What exercises are you
>> doing that involve elbow extension?
>>
>
> OK. I did have tennis elbow about 10 years ago when I was a full-time
> musician and did 4-5 gigs a week for 5.5years. At the moment I'm doing
> ticeps press-down and skull crushers.

My personal experience is that skull crushers seemed to hurt more than
push-downs (a lot more). Overhead extensions hurt the worst.

I had tendinitis in my wrists, hands, elbows, and shoulders that I
acquired from over-training. I wasn't isolating articulations well and was
exercising muscles multiple days in a row. I changed my workout
substantially; isolating things as best as I knew how and allowing my
muscles more rest time. Instead of letting up for 6 months like the doctor
(quack) suggested, I took the medicine she prescribed for about a year and
a half (ibuprofen). A couple of weeks ago I stopped taking it and have not
had any pain yet.

<knocking on wood>

Perhaps a regimen change would solve your problem? Perhaps over-medicating
yourself for an absurd amount of time might help? Maybe some combination
of the two? Luckily you have the brilliant minds of MFW to critique what
you decide to do. (-;


--Sir Jackery

In news:es46js$d2j$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
Stephan Carydakis <scarydakis@nospam.gmail.com> typed:
> "Bully" <bully62@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in message
> news:54lhhdF1uf5p5U1@mid.individual.net...
>> In news:es3s9g$aok$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
>> Stephan Carydakis <scarydakis@nospam.gmail.com> typed:
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> During the last 2 weeks I have resumed light training. The pain in
>>> the biceps, brachialis and supinator regions has gone and there is
>>> no pain during or after training so far. Doing reps in the 10-15
>>> range, cutting out hammer curls and leaving out supination during
>>> DB curls seems to be doing the trick.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, I am still getting quite a bit of pain on the outside
>>> of my elbows.
>>
>> Above or below the nobbly bit?
>
> If you make a right angle with your arm, it is exactly on the boney
> sharp bit. If massage it, I can feel what seems like tendon moving
> around. It also hurts!
>
> check out
> http://scarydakis.customer.netspace....pics/elbow.jpg
> (PLEASE NOTE: that is not my arm)

Neither is it the boney sharp bit. Looks like where the ulna nerve routes
alongside the elbow. It's on the outside of the elbow.,right?

>
> <snip>
>
>>>
>>> Steph.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bully
>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>>
>> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist
>> sees the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
>>
>>
> Steph.



--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill

In news:54lpv6F21c9gjU1@mid.individual.net,
Steve Freides <steve@fridayscomputer.com> typed:
> "Stephan Carydakis" <scarydakis@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:es3s9g$aok$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
>> Hi All,
>>
>> During the last 2 weeks I have resumed light training. The pain in
>> the
>> biceps, brachialis and supinator regions has gone and there is no
>> pain during or after training so far. Doing reps in the 10-15 range,
>> cutting out
>> hammer curls and leaving out supination during DB curls seems to be
>> doing
>> the trick.
>>
>> Unfortunately, I am still getting quite a bit of pain on the outside
>> of my
>> elbows. It doesn't hurt during training but definitely hurts after
>> training.
>> Even a shoulder workout seems to flair it up. I haven't
>> re-introduced dips
>> or pull-ups yet and most of my training has been much lighter with
>> reduced
>> sets (2 instead of 3). So I'm thinking there's something else going
>> on?
>> Could this be related to the muscles used for gripping? Any thoughts?
>>
>> It seems I have lost alot of strength in the biceps (~30%), but not
>> that
>> much in chest, triceps and shoulders. In fact after 2 shoulder
>> workouts, I
>> am doing the same weight in DB press as I was 8 weeks ago and with
>> more reps
>> (15x18kg, 12x22kg, 10x28kg, 8x32kg). Today I did flat bench for the
>> first
>> time in 2 months and managed to go very well I thought. I got a 4th
>> set of
>> 110kgx4 after 15x60kg, 10x80kg, 6x100kg. I didn't think I was going
>> to get
>> 100kg off the rack by the way my biceps had been effected. Does this
>> sound
>> like I was possibly over-training the biceps?
>>
>> Steph.
>
> It sounds like you need the exercise version of an elimination diet -
> cut out all exercises that even remotely bother your elbow, and add
> them back to your program slowly, one at a time. Start by finding
> one or two exercises that don't bother you, hopefully fairly big,
> compound types, and stick with them for at least a week or two before
> you add anything else.
>
> FWIW, I have known a couple of people with elbow problems for whom
> doing grip work was OK, and they focused on things like closing the
> next size C of C gripper for a few months, reporting that their arm
> strength was at least somewhat maintained in the process.
>

If it is a problem with the ulna nerve
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulnar_nerve] then using CoC's may aggravate
the problem.



--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill

"Bully" <bully62@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in message
news:54ltdaF220v3qU1@mid.individual.net...
> In news:54lpv6F21c9gjU1@mid.individual.net,
> Steve Freides <steve@fridayscomputer.com> typed:
>> "Stephan Carydakis" <scarydakis@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:es3s9g$aok$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> During the last 2 weeks I have resumed light training. The pain in
>>> the
>>> biceps, brachialis and supinator regions has gone and there is no
>>> pain during or after training so far. Doing reps in the 10-15 range,
>>> cutting out
>>> hammer curls and leaving out supination during DB curls seems to be
>>> doing
>>> the trick.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, I am still getting quite a bit of pain on the outside
>>> of my
>>> elbows. It doesn't hurt during training but definitely hurts after
>>> training.
>>> Even a shoulder workout seems to flair it up. I haven't
>>> re-introduced dips
>>> or pull-ups yet and most of my training has been much lighter with
>>> reduced
>>> sets (2 instead of 3). So I'm thinking there's something else going
>>> on?
>>> Could this be related to the muscles used for gripping? Any
>>> thoughts?
>>>
>>> It seems I have lost alot of strength in the biceps (~30%), but not
>>> that
>>> much in chest, triceps and shoulders. In fact after 2 shoulder
>>> workouts, I
>>> am doing the same weight in DB press as I was 8 weeks ago and with
>>> more reps
>>> (15x18kg, 12x22kg, 10x28kg, 8x32kg). Today I did flat bench for the
>>> first
>>> time in 2 months and managed to go very well I thought. I got a 4th
>>> set of
>>> 110kgx4 after 15x60kg, 10x80kg, 6x100kg. I didn't think I was going
>>> to get
>>> 100kg off the rack by the way my biceps had been effected. Does this
>>> sound
>>> like I was possibly over-training the biceps?
>>>
>>> Steph.
>>
>> It sounds like you need the exercise version of an elimination diet -
>> cut out all exercises that even remotely bother your elbow, and add
>> them back to your program slowly, one at a time. Start by finding
>> one or two exercises that don't bother you, hopefully fairly big,
>> compound types, and stick with them for at least a week or two before
>> you add anything else.
>>
>> FWIW, I have known a couple of people with elbow problems for whom
>> doing grip work was OK, and they focused on things like closing the
>> next size C of C gripper for a few months, reporting that their arm
>> strength was at least somewhat maintained in the process.
>>
>
> If it is a problem with the ulna nerve
> [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulnar_nerve] then using CoC's may
> aggravate the problem.

Could be. I recommended trying only one or two movements and seeing how
that goes - if it goes well, add another, and if it doesn't, switch to
another. Soon enough he should be able to figure out which movements
bother him and which don't.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


>
>
> --
> Bully
> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>
> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist
> sees
> the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
>

"Bully" <bully62@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in message
news:54lta7F21ij47U1@mid.individual.net...
> In news:es46js$d2j$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
> Stephan Carydakis <scarydakis@nospam.gmail.com> typed:
> > "Bully" <bully62@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in message
> > news:54lhhdF1uf5p5U1@mid.individual.net...
> >> In news:es3s9g$aok$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
> >> Stephan Carydakis <scarydakis@nospam.gmail.com> typed:
> >>> Hi All,
> >>>
> >>> During the last 2 weeks I have resumed light training. The pain in
> >>> the biceps, brachialis and supinator regions has gone and there is
> >>> no pain during or after training so far. Doing reps in the 10-15
> >>> range, cutting out hammer curls and leaving out supination during
> >>> DB curls seems to be doing the trick.
> >>>
> >>> Unfortunately, I am still getting quite a bit of pain on the outside
> >>> of my elbows.
> >>
> >> Above or below the nobbly bit?
> >
> > If you make a right angle with your arm, it is exactly on the boney
> > sharp bit. If massage it, I can feel what seems like tendon moving
> > around. It also hurts!
> >
> > check out
> > http://scarydakis.customer.netspace....pics/elbow.jpg
> > (PLEASE NOTE: that is not my arm)
>
> Neither is it the boney sharp bit. Looks like where the ulna nerve routes
> alongside the elbow. It's on the outside of the elbow.,right?

If I make a right angle with my arm, it is right on the sharp boney bit.

>
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >>>
> >>> Steph.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Bully
> >> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
> >>
> >> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist
> >> sees the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
> >>
> >>
> > Steph.
>
>
>
> --
> Bully
> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>
> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
> the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
>
>

"Sir Jackery" <roehrig@cs.ucdavis.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.64.0702280913320.3991@pc30.cs.ucda vis.edu...
> On Thu, 1 Mar 2007, Stephan Carydakis wrote:
>
> >
> > "Sir Jackery" <roehrig@cs.ucdavis.edu> wrote in message
> > news:Pine.LNX.4.64.0702280818450.3890@pc30.cs.ucda vis.edu...
> >> On Wed, 28 Feb 2007, Stephan Carydakis wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi All,
> >>>
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >>>
> >>> Unfortunately, I am still getting quite a bit of pain on the outside
of
> > my
> >>> elbows. It doesn't hurt during training but definitely hurts after
> > training.
> >>> Even a shoulder workout seems to flair it up. I haven't re-introduced
> > dips
> >>> or pull-ups yet and most of my training has been much lighter with
> > reduced
> >>> sets (2 instead of 3). So I'm thinking there's something else going
on?
> >>> Could this be related to the muscles used for gripping? Any thoughts?
> >>>
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >>>
> >>> Steph.
> >>
> >> I got lateral epicondylitis from triceps exercises. What exercises are
you
> >> doing that involve elbow extension?
> >>
> >
> > OK. I did have tennis elbow about 10 years ago when I was a full-time
> > musician and did 4-5 gigs a week for 5.5years. At the moment I'm doing
> > ticeps press-down and skull crushers.
>
> My personal experience is that skull crushers seemed to hurt more than
> push-downs (a lot more). Overhead extensions hurt the worst.
>
> I had tendinitis in my wrists, hands, elbows, and shoulders that I
> acquired from over-training. I wasn't isolating articulations well and was
> exercising muscles multiple days in a row. I changed my workout
> substantially; isolating things as best as I knew how and allowing my
> muscles more rest time. Instead of letting up for 6 months like the doctor
> (quack) suggested, I took the medicine she prescribed for about a year and
> a half (ibuprofen). A couple of weeks ago I stopped taking it and have not
> had any pain yet.
>

I think changing things up may be a good thing. I use a pain killer which
contains ibuprofen. I find it works well but there's that "rumour" about it
causing serious stomach problems?

> <knocking on wood>
>
> Perhaps a regimen change would solve your problem? Perhaps over-medicating
> yourself for an absurd amount of time might help? Maybe some combination
> of the two? Luckily you have the brilliant minds of MFW to critique what
> you decide to do. (-;
>
>
> --Sir Jackery

A change is already occurring with good results thus far. I obviously need
to isolate the cause/s of the pain in the elbows and act accordingly. I
would really love to find a good sports medicine type person who could
diagnose and offer treatment correctly. Between altered training, a good doc
and the enormous intellectual capacity on MFW, I'm sure I'll be on the road
to recovery in no time.

Steph.

"Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote in message
news:54lu4cF21jvu0U1@mid.individual.net...
> "Bully" <bully62@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in message
> news:54ltdaF220v3qU1@mid.individual.net...
> > In news:54lpv6F21c9gjU1@mid.individual.net,
> > Steve Freides <steve@fridayscomputer.com> typed:
> >> "Stephan Carydakis" <scarydakis@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:es3s9g$aok$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
> >>> Hi All,
> >>>
> >>> During the last 2 weeks I have resumed light training. The pain in
> >>> the
> >>> biceps, brachialis and supinator regions has gone and there is no
> >>> pain during or after training so far. Doing reps in the 10-15 range,
> >>> cutting out
> >>> hammer curls and leaving out supination during DB curls seems to be
> >>> doing
> >>> the trick.
> >>>
> >>> Unfortunately, I am still getting quite a bit of pain on the outside
> >>> of my
> >>> elbows. It doesn't hurt during training but definitely hurts after
> >>> training.
> >>> Even a shoulder workout seems to flair it up. I haven't
> >>> re-introduced dips
> >>> or pull-ups yet and most of my training has been much lighter with
> >>> reduced
> >>> sets (2 instead of 3). So I'm thinking there's something else going
> >>> on?
> >>> Could this be related to the muscles used for gripping? Any
> >>> thoughts?
> >>>
> >>> It seems I have lost alot of strength in the biceps (~30%), but not
> >>> that
> >>> much in chest, triceps and shoulders. In fact after 2 shoulder
> >>> workouts, I
> >>> am doing the same weight in DB press as I was 8 weeks ago and with
> >>> more reps
> >>> (15x18kg, 12x22kg, 10x28kg, 8x32kg). Today I did flat bench for the
> >>> first
> >>> time in 2 months and managed to go very well I thought. I got a 4th
> >>> set of
> >>> 110kgx4 after 15x60kg, 10x80kg, 6x100kg. I didn't think I was going
> >>> to get
> >>> 100kg off the rack by the way my biceps had been effected. Does this
> >>> sound
> >>> like I was possibly over-training the biceps?
> >>>
> >>> Steph.
> >>
> >> It sounds like you need the exercise version of an elimination diet -
> >> cut out all exercises that even remotely bother your elbow, and add
> >> them back to your program slowly, one at a time. Start by finding
> >> one or two exercises that don't bother you, hopefully fairly big,
> >> compound types, and stick with them for at least a week or two before
> >> you add anything else.
> >>
> >> FWIW, I have known a couple of people with elbow problems for whom
> >> doing grip work was OK, and they focused on things like closing the
> >> next size C of C gripper for a few months, reporting that their arm
> >> strength was at least somewhat maintained in the process.
> >>
> >
> > If it is a problem with the ulna nerve
> > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulnar_nerve] then using CoC's may
> > aggravate the problem.
>
> Could be. I recommended trying only one or two movements and seeing how
> that goes - if it goes well, add another, and if it doesn't, switch to
> another. Soon enough he should be able to figure out which movements
> bother him and which don't.

True, but as I mentioned, I have had 5 weeks of no upper body. For the last
2 weeks I have begun light training. Less weight, 33% less sets, no dips, no
pull-ups, no back at all yet in fact. I only did triceps for the first time
last Sunday and it felt really good. No pain during or the next day. Bicpes
on Monday went well, no pain during or after. Tuesday was shoulder day.
After that workout I felt sore in the elbows so I massaged it and there was
alot of sharp, localised pain. I'm not neccessarily saying it was shoulder
exercises that triggered it. It could have been accumulative right?
Yesterday was chest day and eventhough I had pain in the area whilst
massaging it between sets, it didn't hurt during exercise. In fact today,
the pain is better though still sharp when massaging it.

>
> -S-
> http://www.kbnj.com
>
>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Bully
> > Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
> >
> > "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist
> > sees
> > the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
> >
>
>

Steph.

On Thu, 1 Mar 2007, Stephan Carydakis wrote:

>
> "Sir Jackery" <roehrig@cs.ucdavis.edu> wrote in message
> news:Pine.LNX.4.64.0702280913320.3991@pc30.cs.ucda vis.edu...
>> On Thu, 1 Mar 2007, Stephan Carydakis wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Sir Jackery" <roehrig@cs.ucdavis.edu> wrote in message
>>> news:Pine.LNX.4.64.0702280818450.3890@pc30.cs.ucda vis.edu...
>>>> On Wed, 28 Feb 2007, Stephan Carydakis wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately, I am still getting quite a bit of pain on the outside
> of
>>> my
>>>>> elbows. It doesn't hurt during training but definitely hurts after
>>> training.
>>>>> Even a shoulder workout seems to flair it up. I haven't re-introduced
>>> dips
>>>>> or pull-ups yet and most of my training has been much lighter with
>>> reduced
>>>>> sets (2 instead of 3). So I'm thinking there's something else going
> on?
>>>>> Could this be related to the muscles used for gripping? Any thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Steph.
>>>>
>>>> I got lateral epicondylitis from triceps exercises. What exercises are
> you
>>>> doing that involve elbow extension?
>>>>
>>>
>>> OK. I did have tennis elbow about 10 years ago when I was a full-time
>>> musician and did 4-5 gigs a week for 5.5years. At the moment I'm doing
>>> ticeps press-down and skull crushers.
>>
>> My personal experience is that skull crushers seemed to hurt more than
>> push-downs (a lot more). Overhead extensions hurt the worst.
>>
>> I had tendinitis in my wrists, hands, elbows, and shoulders that I
>> acquired from over-training. I wasn't isolating articulations well and was
>> exercising muscles multiple days in a row. I changed my workout
>> substantially; isolating things as best as I knew how and allowing my
>> muscles more rest time. Instead of letting up for 6 months like the doctor
>> (quack) suggested, I took the medicine she prescribed for about a year and
>> a half (ibuprofen). A couple of weeks ago I stopped taking it and have not
>> had any pain yet.
>>
>
> I think changing things up may be a good thing. I use a pain killer which
> contains ibuprofen. I find it works well but there's that "rumour" about it
> causing serious stomach problems?
>
>> <knocking on wood>
>>
>> Perhaps a regimen change would solve your problem? Perhaps over-medicating
>> yourself for an absurd amount of time might help? Maybe some combination
>> of the two? Luckily you have the brilliant minds of MFW to critique what
>> you decide to do. (-;
>>
>>
>> --Sir Jackery
>
> A change is already occurring with good results thus far. I obviously need
> to isolate the cause/s of the pain in the elbows and act accordingly. I
> would really love to find a good sports medicine type person who could
> diagnose and offer treatment correctly. Between altered training, a good doc
> and the enormous intellectual capacity on MFW, I'm sure I'll be on the road
> to recovery in no time.
>
> Steph.
>
>
>

By the advice of someone on this ng I contacted my local university and
they had a sports medicine department. You might try the same to find a
good sports med specialist.


--Sir Jackery

"Stephan Carydakis" <scarydakis@nospam.gmail.com> schreef:

> I think changing things up may be a good thing. I use a pain killer which
> contains ibuprofen.

Working out on pain-kilers while there is allready something wrong is a bad
idea.
You could make things worse, without noticing it during the workout.

--
Pete

"Sir Jackery" <roehrig@cs.ucdavis.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.64.0702282100470.9516@pc30.cs.ucda vis.edu...
> On Thu, 1 Mar 2007, Stephan Carydakis wrote:
>
> >
> > "Sir Jackery" <roehrig@cs.ucdavis.edu> wrote in message
> > news:Pine.LNX.4.64.0702280913320.3991@pc30.cs.ucda vis.edu...
> >> On Thu, 1 Mar 2007, Stephan Carydakis wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> "Sir Jackery" <roehrig@cs.ucdavis.edu> wrote in message
> >>> news:Pine.LNX.4.64.0702280818450.3890@pc30.cs.ucda vis.edu...
> >>>> On Wed, 28 Feb 2007, Stephan Carydakis wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi All,
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>> <snip>
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Unfortunately, I am still getting quite a bit of pain on the outside
> > of
> >>> my
> >>>>> elbows. It doesn't hurt during training but definitely hurts after
> >>> training.
> >>>>> Even a shoulder workout seems to flair it up. I haven't
re-introduced
> >>> dips
> >>>>> or pull-ups yet and most of my training has been much lighter with
> >>> reduced
> >>>>> sets (2 instead of 3). So I'm thinking there's something else going
> > on?
> >>>>> Could this be related to the muscles used for gripping? Any
thoughts?
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>> <snip>
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Steph.
> >>>>
> >>>> I got lateral epicondylitis from triceps exercises. What exercises
are
> > you
> >>>> doing that involve elbow extension?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> OK. I did have tennis elbow about 10 years ago when I was a full-time
> >>> musician and did 4-5 gigs a week for 5.5years. At the moment I'm doing
> >>> ticeps press-down and skull crushers.
> >>
> >> My personal experience is that skull crushers seemed to hurt more than
> >> push-downs (a lot more). Overhead extensions hurt the worst.
> >>
> >> I had tendinitis in my wrists, hands, elbows, and shoulders that I
> >> acquired from over-training. I wasn't isolating articulations well and
was
> >> exercising muscles multiple days in a row. I changed my workout
> >> substantially; isolating things as best as I knew how and allowing my
> >> muscles more rest time. Instead of letting up for 6 months like the
doctor
> >> (quack) suggested, I took the medicine she prescribed for about a year
and
> >> a half (ibuprofen). A couple of weeks ago I stopped taking it and have
not
> >> had any pain yet.
> >>
> >
> > I think changing things up may be a good thing. I use a pain killer
which
> > contains ibuprofen. I find it works well but there's that "rumour" about
it
> > causing serious stomach problems?
> >
> >> <knocking on wood>
> >>
> >> Perhaps a regimen change would solve your problem? Perhaps
over-medicating
> >> yourself for an absurd amount of time might help? Maybe some
combination
> >> of the two? Luckily you have the brilliant minds of MFW to critique
what
> >> you decide to do. (-;
> >>
> >>
> >> --Sir Jackery
> >
> > A change is already occurring with good results thus far. I obviously
need
> > to isolate the cause/s of the pain in the elbows and act accordingly. I
> > would really love to find a good sports medicine type person who could
> > diagnose and offer treatment correctly. Between altered training, a good
doc
> > and the enormous intellectual capacity on MFW, I'm sure I'll be on the
road
> > to recovery in no time.
> >
> > Steph.
> >
> >
> >
>
> By the advice of someone on this ng I contacted my local university and
> they had a sports medicine department. You might try the same to find a
> good sports med specialist.
>

Good idea.

>
> --Sir Jackery

"Stephan Carydakis" <scarydakis@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:es5e4g$m7u$1@otis.netspace.net.au...

>> Could be. I recommended trying only one or two movements and seeing
>> how
>> that goes - if it goes well, add another, and if it doesn't, switch
>> to
>> another. Soon enough he should be able to figure out which movements
>> bother him and which don't.
>
> True, but as I mentioned, I have had 5 weeks of no upper body. For the
> last
> 2 weeks I have begun light training. Less weight, 33% less sets, no
> dips, no
> pull-ups, no back at all yet in fact. I only did triceps for the first
> time
> last Sunday and it felt really good. No pain during or the next day.
> Bicpes
> on Monday went well, no pain during or after. Tuesday was shoulder
> day.
> After that workout I felt sore in the elbows so I massaged it and
> there was
> alot of sharp, localised pain. I'm not neccessarily saying it was
> shoulder
> exercises that triggered it. It could have been accumulative right?
> Yesterday was chest day and eventhough I had pain in the area whilst
> massaging it between sets, it didn't hurt during exercise. In fact
> today,
> the pain is better though still sharp when massaging it.

But it could well be that one or two of the movements you're doing
simply don't agree with you right now, regardless of how much time you
take off. Some injuries don't heal in 5 weeks - and many other things
are possible.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

On Thu, 1 Mar 2007, Pete wrote:

> "Stephan Carydakis" <scarydakis@nospam.gmail.com> schreef:
>
>> I think changing things up may be a good thing. I use a pain killer which
>> contains ibuprofen.
>
> Working out on pain-kilers while there is allready something wrong is a bad
> idea.
> You could make things worse, without noticing it during the workout.
>
> --
> Pete

I dropped a 90lb dumbell on my chest during a workout after I took some
hydrocodone. It left a bruise with the pattern of my shirt on my peck (-:

--Sir Jackery

Dnia 2007-03-01 Stephan Carydakis napisa³(a):
>
> "Bully" <bully62@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in message
> news:54lta7F21ij47U1@mid.individual.net...
>> In news:es46js$d2j$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
>> Stephan Carydakis <scarydakis@nospam.gmail.com> typed:
>> > "Bully" <bully62@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in message
>> > news:54lhhdF1uf5p5U1@mid.individual.net...
>> >> In news:es3s9g$aok$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
>> >> Stephan Carydakis <scarydakis@nospam.gmail.com> typed:
>> >>> Hi All,
>> >>>
>> >>> During the last 2 weeks I have resumed light training. The pain in
>> >>> the biceps, brachialis and supinator regions has gone and there is
>> >>> no pain during or after training so far. Doing reps in the 10-15
>> >>> range, cutting out hammer curls and leaving out supination during
>> >>> DB curls seems to be doing the trick.
>> >>>
>> >>> Unfortunately, I am still getting quite a bit of pain on the outside
>> >>> of my elbows.
>> >>
>> >> Above or below the nobbly bit?
>> >
>> > If you make a right angle with your arm, it is exactly on the boney
>> > sharp bit. If massage it, I can feel what seems like tendon moving
>> > around. It also hurts!
>> >
>> > check out
>> > http://scarydakis.customer.netspace....pics/elbow.jpg
>> > (PLEASE NOTE: that is not my arm)
>>
>> Neither is it the boney sharp bit. Looks like where the ulna nerve routes
>> alongside the elbow. It's on the outside of the elbow.,right?
>
> If I make a right angle with my arm, it is right on the sharp boney bit.

I'm not an anatomist, but I think I know what and where it is. If I
screw a side press a bit, I feel some "stress" there (no pain or
anything, just that I know where it is). I'm not sure how would you
fix it. I'd give up on shoulder presses for a while, work on my
flexibility, to be able to press with picture perfect form, and see how
it works. You should be able to keep your shoulders happy with cable
flyes for a while, so I'd just give it a shot.

Or you can go Sir Jack's way, stuff yourself with painkillers and
complain how stupid everybody around is. It didn't work for him, but
who knows if it won't work for you? ;-)

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On Thu, 1 Mar 2007, Sir Jackery wrote:

> On Thu, 1 Mar 2007, Pete wrote:
>
>> "Stephan Carydakis" <scarydakis@nospam.gmail.com> schreef:
>>
>>> I think changing things up may be a good thing. I use a pain killer which
>>> contains ibuprofen.
>>
>> Working out on pain-kilers while there is allready something wrong is a
>> bad idea. You could make things worse, without noticing it during the
>> workout.
>
> I dropped a 90lb dumbell on my chest during a workout after I took some
> hydrocodone. It left a bruise with the pattern of my shirt on my peck
> (-:

Whacked my right testicle with an 80 lb a few weeks ago, on the way out of
a bent-over row. Nothing to do with painkillers, just clumsiness. God damn
that hurt.

tom

--
Freedom is the right of all sentient beings. -- Optimus Prime

In news:es5c68$lqc$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
Stephan Carydakis <scarydakis@nospam.gmail.com> typed:
> "Bully" <bully62@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in message
> news:54lta7F21ij47U1@mid.individual.net...
>> In news:es46js$d2j$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
>> Stephan Carydakis <scarydakis@nospam.gmail.com> typed:
>>> "Bully" <bully62@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in message
>>> news:54lhhdF1uf5p5U1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> In news:es3s9g$aok$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
>>>> Stephan Carydakis <scarydakis@nospam.gmail.com> typed:
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>
>>>>> During the last 2 weeks I have resumed light training. The pain
>>>>> in the biceps, brachialis and supinator regions has gone and
>>>>> there is no pain during or after training so far. Doing reps in
>>>>> the 10-15 range, cutting out hammer curls and leaving out
>>>>> supination during DB curls seems to be doing the trick.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately, I am still getting quite a bit of pain on the
>>>>> outside of my elbows.
>>>>
>>>> Above or below the nobbly bit?
>>>
>>> If you make a right angle with your arm, it is exactly on the boney
>>> sharp bit. If massage it, I can feel what seems like tendon moving
>>> around. It also hurts!
>>>
>>> check out
>>> http://scarydakis.customer.netspace....pics/elbow.jpg
>>> (PLEASE NOTE: that is not my arm)
>>
>> Neither is it the boney sharp bit. Looks like where the ulna nerve
>> routes alongside the elbow. It's on the outside of the elbow.,right?
>
> If I make a right angle with my arm, it is right on the sharp boney
> bit.
>

OK, have it your way. Good luck.

-
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill

Sir Jackery <roehrig@cs.ucdavis.edu> wrote:

>On Thu, 1 Mar 2007, Pete wrote:
>
>> "Stephan Carydakis" <scarydakis@nospam.gmail.com> schreef:
>>
>>> I think changing things up may be a good thing. I use a pain killer which
>>> contains ibuprofen.
>>
>> Working out on pain-kilers while there is allready something wrong is a bad
>> idea.
>> You could make things worse, without noticing it during the workout.
>>
>> --
>> Pete
>
>I dropped a 90lb dumbell on my chest during a workout after I took some
>hydrocodone. It left a bruise with the pattern of my shirt on my peck (-:

You're supposed to take hydrocodone *after* you drop a dumbbell on
your chest.

Just for your future reference.

JMW wrote:
[...]

> You're supposed to take hydrocodone
> *after* you drop a dumbbell on your chest.
>
> Just for your future reference.

Nominated for March's award.

(Just for my future reference.)

--
Curt

Stephan Carydakis wrote:
[...]
> During the last 2 weeks I have
> resumed light training. <snip>
> Unfortunately, I am still getting quite
> a bit of pain on the outside of my
> elbows. <snip>
> Could this be related to the muscles
> used for gripping? <snip>

I'll echo the bits about epicondylitis and five weeks, kindasorta.

Five weeks may not have been a long enough period of time for whatever
ails you to, uh, no longer ail you.

I've suffered from tennis elbow related to repetitive work motion at a
printing plant. They sent me to a physical therapist and my elbows no
longer suffer the sharp pain in the general area you describe. So,
yeah, I'd recommend you check out physical therapy if that's a
financial, yadayada, whatever option for you.

The whole healing process was certainly longer than five weeks, fwiw,
Steph. I certainly wish you a speedier recovery.

You mentioned it being "related to the muscles used for gripping,"
which immediately brought epicondylitis to my mind. I couldn't squeeze
a wash cloth or grip a doorknob without some pretty good pain
resulting.

Otoh, complete rest took away some noticeable knee pain about five
years ago. I never visited the doctor's office re that episode, but my
right knee barked loudly as I climbed stairs. Rest, apparently or imo,
allowed whatever was bothering me to, um, go away. I think I read that
term in PubMed, actually. Homologous, genome sequence, go away, etc.
All hoity-toity medical terms. Trust me.

And trust a few more weeks of rest to help you. A trip to an ortho
probably wouldn't hurt, of course.

Best of luck. Please post a follow-up.

> Steph.

--
Curt

"Curt" <curtjames@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1172797467.378381.325610@s48g2000cws.googlegr oups.com...
> Stephan Carydakis wrote:
> [...]
> > During the last 2 weeks I have
> > resumed light training. <snip>
> > Unfortunately, I am still getting quite
> > a bit of pain on the outside of my
> > elbows. <snip>
> > Could this be related to the muscles
> > used for gripping? <snip>
>
> I'll echo the bits about epicondylitis and five weeks, kindasorta.
>
> Five weeks may not have been a long enough period of time for whatever
> ails you to, uh, no longer ail you.
>
> I've suffered from tennis elbow related to repetitive work motion at a
> printing plant. They sent me to a physical therapist and my elbows no
> longer suffer the sharp pain in the general area you describe. So,
> yeah, I'd recommend you check out physical therapy if that's a
> financial, yadayada, whatever option for you.
>

I have been visitng an Osteopath weekly. I also get massage every 2 weeks.
Since the Osteo only massages and applies about a minute of ultrasound the
area, I have decied to cease going to the Osteo and get my massuese to
massage the area. I am now trying to find an alternative for the Osteopath.
Perhaps a sports medicine person.

> The whole healing process was certainly longer than five weeks, fwiw,
> Steph. I certainly wish you a speedier recovery.
>
> You mentioned it being "related to the muscles used for gripping,"
> which immediately brought epicondylitis to my mind. I couldn't squeeze
> a wash cloth or grip a doorknob without some pretty good pain
> resulting.
>

About12 years ago, after about 3 years of being a full time musician, I
resumed gigging after 2 weeks off. Well I couldn't play my bass. I couldn't
'grip' ther neck or apply pressure to the fret board. I managed to get
through the night by using my thumb over the top and keeping it simple. This
was diagnosed as an RSI injury. I eventually couldn't do things like hold a
phone to my ear for more than 30 seconds, wash dishes or play bass the way I
wanted to. It got better but took years as you meantioned.

> Otoh, complete rest took away some noticeable knee pain about five
> years ago. I never visited the doctor's office re that episode, but my
> right knee barked loudly as I climbed stairs. Rest, apparently or imo,
> allowed whatever was bothering me to, um, go away. I think I read that
> term in PubMed, actually. Homologous, genome sequence, go away, etc.
> All hoity-toity medical terms. Trust me.
>
> And trust a few more weeks of rest to help you. A trip to an ortho
> probably wouldn't hurt, of course.

I am gathering that I need to do something else other than what I am doing
now. I would have thought that 5 weeks off would see some improvement.
Mostly, I am just suprised that it seems to be more painful after 5 weeks of
nothing.

>
> Best of luck. Please post a follow-up.
>

Thanks,

> > Steph.
>
> --
> Curt
>
Steph.