Seated row range of motion

As the subject line says,

How far back should your elbows go in a seated row?

I've been bringing them back to the midline of my body, but i've seen
people go further, and now i look it up, ExRx and bodybuilding.com say to
go further too, so that the elbows are just behind the back, and the
wrists are about level with the stomach.

So, i'm doing 80% partials or something. How does that affect muscle
activation? Am i using some muscles more or less than with a rull-ROM row?
Any ideas?

tom

--
The RAMAN VESSEL enters the SOLAR SYSTEM. The explorers explore it,
and it is COOL. Then they LEAVE. Then the Raman vessel LEAVES. --
Book-A-Minute SF/F

Tom Anderson wrote:
> As the subject line says,
>
> How far back should your elbows go in a seated row?
>
> I've been bringing them back to the midline of my body, but i've seen
> people go further, and now i look it up, ExRx and bodybuilding.com say
> to go further too, so that the elbows are just behind the back, and the
> wrists are about level with the stomach.
>
> So, i'm doing 80% partials or something. How does that affect muscle
> activation? Am i using some muscles more or less than with a rull-ROM
> row? Any ideas?
>
> tom
>
While I can't answer your specific question Tom, I have only ever
performed them with the attachment touching my waist which means my
elbows have to go past the midline and behind my back. I also try and
squeeze my shoulder blades together (and hold briefly) at the point of
full ROM.

Bob Volkmer

On Thu, 8 May 2008 02:54:44 +0100, Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li>
wrote:

>As the subject line says,
>
>How far back should your elbows go in a seated row?

This being essentially a back exercise the ROM of the arms/elbows is
incidental to good form and ensuring a sensible ROM for the back
muscles involved.

>
>I've been bringing them back to the midline of my body, but i've seen
>people go further, and now i look it up, ExRx and bodybuilding.com say to
>go further too, so that the elbows are just behind the back, and the
>wrists are about level with the stomach.

The equipment you are using will normally dictate the ROM of the
arms/elbows. Hands brought back to mid-level stomach will place elbows
in the most effective position, with upper body just beyond the
vertical.

>
>So, i'm doing 80% partials or something. How does that affect muscle
>activation? Am i using some muscles more or less than with a rull-ROM row?
>Any ideas?

You should not even attempt a full ROM of the back muscles involved in
a seated row, which would undoubtedly cause injury to a very
susceptible part of the body.

Remember the old training adage: "your back is not a derrick"! ;o)

In article <Pine.LNX.4.64.0805080250390.29094@urchin.earth.li >,
Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> wrote:

> As the subject line says,
>
> How far back should your elbows go in a seated row?
>
> I've been bringing them back to the midline of my body, but i've seen
> people go further, and now i look it up, ExRx and bodybuilding.com say to
> go further too, so that the elbows are just behind the back, and the
> wrists are about level with the stomach.
>
> So, i'm doing 80% partials or something. How does that affect muscle
> activation? Am i using some muscles more or less than with a rull-ROM row?
> Any ideas?
>
> tom

IMHO if you go past midline, it may work the back a bit tighter, but it
also brings the triceps into play past midline, not that that is a bad
thing. ;-)

YMMV.
--
--

Peace! Om

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a Bitch."
-- Jack Nicholson

Charles wrote:
> On Thu, 8 May 2008 02:54:44 +0100, Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li>
> wrote:
>
>> As the subject line says,
>>
>> How far back should your elbows go in a seated row?
>
> This being essentially a back exercise the ROM of the arms/elbows is
> incidental to good form and ensuring a sensible ROM for the back
> muscles involved.
>
>> I've been bringing them back to the midline of my body, but i've seen
>> people go further, and now i look it up, ExRx and bodybuilding.com say to
>> go further too, so that the elbows are just behind the back, and the
>> wrists are about level with the stomach.
>
> The equipment you are using will normally dictate the ROM of the
> arms/elbows. Hands brought back to mid-level stomach will place elbows
> in the most effective position, with upper body just beyond the
> vertical.
>
>> So, i'm doing 80% partials or something. How does that affect muscle
>> activation? Am i using some muscles more or less than with a rull-ROM row?
>> Any ideas?
>
> You should not even attempt a full ROM of the back muscles involved in
> a seated row, which would undoubtedly cause injury to a very
> susceptible part of the body.
>
> Remember the old training adage: "your back is not a derrick"! ;o)


Charles, assuming we are talking a straight back seated row, with good
form, I can't see how a greater ROM will lead to injury. Naturally with
poor form and a rounded spine I can understand but I am puzzled due to
my ignorance probably how moving the elbows behind the back compared to
midline is inherently dangerous.

Cheers
Bob

On Thu, 08 May 2008 18:44:51 +0930, Bob Volkmer <mfw@vokmer.biz>
wrote:

>Charles wrote:
>> On Thu, 8 May 2008 02:54:44 +0100, Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> As the subject line says,
>>>
>>> How far back should your elbows go in a seated row?
>>
>> This being essentially a back exercise the ROM of the arms/elbows is
>> incidental to good form and ensuring a sensible ROM for the back
>> muscles involved.
>>
>>> I've been bringing them back to the midline of my body, but i've seen
>>> people go further, and now i look it up, ExRx and bodybuilding.com say to
>>> go further too, so that the elbows are just behind the back, and the
>>> wrists are about level with the stomach.
>>
>> The equipment you are using will normally dictate the ROM of the
>> arms/elbows. Hands brought back to mid-level stomach will place elbows
>> in the most effective position, with upper body just beyond the
>> vertical.
>>
>>> So, i'm doing 80% partials or something. How does that affect muscle
>>> activation? Am i using some muscles more or less than with a rull-ROM row?
>>> Any ideas?
>>
>> You should not even attempt a full ROM of the back muscles involved in
>> a seated row, which would undoubtedly cause injury to a very
>> susceptible part of the body.
>>
>> Remember the old training adage: "your back is not a derrick"! ;o)
>
>
>Charles, assuming we are talking a straight back seated row, with good
>form, I can't see how a greater ROM will lead to injury.

It won't necessarily, but the weight used in a seated row is usually
too heavy for full hyper-extension of the back. It is also not good
practice to go too far past the vertical because once you start
shortening muscles with the line of gravity much benefit is lost.

There are much better and safer exercises for that ROM. See:
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...Extension.html

I like hypers and reverse hypers on the Swiss Ball.

>Naturally with
>poor form and a rounded spine I can understand but I am puzzled due to
>my ignorance probably how moving the elbows behind the back compared to
>midline is inherently dangerous.

The position of the elbows is largely irrelevant; it's going too far
back with heavy weight which is a potential problem for 'the back'.

I trust you are still thriving old friend? ;o)

Charles wrote:
> On Thu, 08 May 2008 18:44:51 +0930, Bob Volkmer <mfw@vokmer.biz>
> wrote:
>
>> Charles wrote:
>>> On Thu, 8 May 2008 02:54:44 +0100, Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> As the subject line says,
>>>>
>>>> How far back should your elbows go in a seated row?
>>> This being essentially a back exercise the ROM of the arms/elbows is
>>> incidental to good form and ensuring a sensible ROM for the back
>>> muscles involved.
>>>
>>>> I've been bringing them back to the midline of my body, but i've seen
>>>> people go further, and now i look it up, ExRx and bodybuilding.com say to
>>>> go further too, so that the elbows are just behind the back, and the
>>>> wrists are about level with the stomach.
>>> The equipment you are using will normally dictate the ROM of the
>>> arms/elbows. Hands brought back to mid-level stomach will place elbows
>>> in the most effective position, with upper body just beyond the
>>> vertical.
>>>
>>>> So, i'm doing 80% partials or something. How does that affect muscle
>>>> activation? Am i using some muscles more or less than with a rull-ROM row?
>>>> Any ideas?
>>> You should not even attempt a full ROM of the back muscles involved in
>>> a seated row, which would undoubtedly cause injury to a very
>>> susceptible part of the body.
>>>
>>> Remember the old training adage: "your back is not a derrick"! ;o)
>>
>> Charles, assuming we are talking a straight back seated row, with good
>> form, I can't see how a greater ROM will lead to injury.
>
> It won't necessarily, but the weight used in a seated row is usually
> too heavy for full hyper-extension of the back. It is also not good
> practice to go too far past the vertical because once you start
> shortening muscles with the line of gravity much benefit is lost.
>
> There are much better and safer exercises for that ROM. See:
> http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...Extension.html
>
> I like hypers and reverse hypers on the Swiss Ball.
>
>> Naturally with
>> poor form and a rounded spine I can understand but I am puzzled due to
>> my ignorance probably how moving the elbows behind the back compared to
>> midline is inherently dangerous.
>
> The position of the elbows is largely irrelevant; it's going too far
> back with heavy weight which is a potential problem for 'the back'.
>
> I trust you are still thriving old friend? ;o)

Okay, it seems we agree. It is the position of the spine/back that is
the important issue.

I am not sure thriving is the word I would use but I have almost moved
into semi retirement (just doing research now, no more management dross)
and the MRI's show that my brain tumour seems dormant. But gym wise I
am kicking arse, for my age

Bob

In article <Pine.LNX.4.64.0805080250390.29094@urchin.earth.li >,
Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> wrote:

> As the subject line says,
>
> How far back should your elbows go in a seated row?
>
> I've been bringing them back to the midline of my body, but i've seen
> people go further, and now i look it up, ExRx and bodybuilding.com say to
> go further too, so that the elbows are just behind the back, and the
> wrists are about level with the stomach.
>
> So, i'm doing 80% partials or something. How does that affect muscle
> activation? Am i using some muscles more or less than with a rull-ROM row?
> Any ideas?

IF you are thinking lat development I doubt the increased range of
motion will help. If you want rhomboid/trapezius (and not the upper trap
here), then finish the movement by trying to pull the shoulders as far
back and down as you can. Think of trying to get the shoulder blades
pinched together.

Personally I don't see the point in doing isolation movements for every
muscle, so I would perform the movement more fully.

--
Keith

In article <pij524lg36f5spga4447rmmihlp6r257hd@4ax.com>,
Charles <jrh@msn.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 08 May 2008 18:44:51 +0930, Bob Volkmer <mfw@vokmer.biz>
> wrote:
>
> >Charles wrote:
> >> On Thu, 8 May 2008 02:54:44 +0100, Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> As the subject line says,
> >>>
> >>> How far back should your elbows go in a seated row?
> >>
> >> This being essentially a back exercise the ROM of the arms/elbows is
> >> incidental to good form and ensuring a sensible ROM for the back
> >> muscles involved.
> >>
> >>> I've been bringing them back to the midline of my body, but i've seen
> >>> people go further, and now i look it up, ExRx and bodybuilding.com say to
> >>> go further too, so that the elbows are just behind the back, and the
> >>> wrists are about level with the stomach.
> >>
> >> The equipment you are using will normally dictate the ROM of the
> >> arms/elbows. Hands brought back to mid-level stomach will place elbows
> >> in the most effective position, with upper body just beyond the
> >> vertical.
> >>
> >>> So, i'm doing 80% partials or something. How does that affect muscle
> >>> activation? Am i using some muscles more or less than with a rull-ROM
> >>> row?
> >>> Any ideas?
> >>
> >> You should not even attempt a full ROM of the back muscles involved in
> >> a seated row, which would undoubtedly cause injury to a very
> >> susceptible part of the body.
> >>
> >> Remember the old training adage: "your back is not a derrick"! ;o)
> >
> >
> >Charles, assuming we are talking a straight back seated row, with good
> >form, I can't see how a greater ROM will lead to injury.
>
> It won't necessarily, but the weight used in a seated row is usually
> too heavy for full hyper-extension of the back. It is also not good
> practice to go too far past the vertical because once you start
> shortening muscles with the line of gravity much benefit is lost.
>
> There are much better and safer exercises for that ROM. See:
> http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...Extension.html
>
> I like hypers and reverse hypers on the Swiss Ball.
>
> >Naturally with
> >poor form and a rounded spine I can understand but I am puzzled due to
> >my ignorance probably how moving the elbows behind the back compared to
> >midline is inherently dangerous.
>
> The position of the elbows is largely irrelevant; it's going too far
> back with heavy weight which is a potential problem for 'the back'.
>
> I trust you are still thriving old friend? ;o)

You really shouldn't be using so much weight that you require hip
extension to lift it anyhow. But...

People being what they are.

--
Keith

"Hobbes" <khobman800@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:khobman800-026ACE.07540708052008@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> In article <Pine.LNX.4.64.0805080250390.29094@urchin.earth.li >,
> Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
>
>> As the subject line says,
>>
>> How far back should your elbows go in a seated row?
>>
>> I've been bringing them back to the midline of my body, but i've seen
>> people go further, and now i look it up, ExRx and bodybuilding.com
>> say to
>> go further too, so that the elbows are just behind the back, and the
>> wrists are about level with the stomach.
>>
>> So, i'm doing 80% partials or something. How does that affect muscle
>> activation? Am i using some muscles more or less than with a rull-ROM
>> row?
>> Any ideas?
>
> IF you are thinking lat development I doubt the increased range of
> motion will help. If you want rhomboid/trapezius (and not the upper
> trap
> here), then finish the movement by trying to pull the shoulders as far
> back and down as you can. Think of trying to get the shoulder blades
> pinched together.

Other than developing muscles you might otherwise not, what is
accomplished by pinching the shoulder blades together at the end of a
seated row? Will it help, e.g., a bench press? I can see that one, but
I can't see it doing much for an overhead press or deadlift. I can also
see it being useful for someone who squats with a bar on their backs (as
opposed to barbell or kettlebell front squats). Not necessarily
disagreeing, just asking what exactly, if one isn't concerned with
appearances or necessarily trying to "hit every muscle," this would
accomplish. I generally find, in my own training, that I want to be
strong in a more "guard" type of position, e.g., as one is with two
kettlebells racked on the chest, or a boxer's or martial artist's stance
in sparring.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


> Personally I don't see the point in doing isolation movements for
> every
> muscle, so I would perform the movement more fully.
>
> --
> Keith

In article <68gfjsF2sfmi6U1@mid.individual.net>,
"Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

> "Hobbes" <khobman800@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:khobman800-026ACE.07540708052008@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> > In article <Pine.LNX.4.64.0805080250390.29094@urchin.earth.li >,
> > Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
> >
> >> As the subject line says,
> >>
> >> How far back should your elbows go in a seated row?
> >>
> >> I've been bringing them back to the midline of my body, but i've seen
> >> people go further, and now i look it up, ExRx and bodybuilding.com
> >> say to
> >> go further too, so that the elbows are just behind the back, and the
> >> wrists are about level with the stomach.
> >>
> >> So, i'm doing 80% partials or something. How does that affect muscle
> >> activation? Am i using some muscles more or less than with a rull-ROM
> >> row?
> >> Any ideas?
> >
> > IF you are thinking lat development I doubt the increased range of
> > motion will help. If you want rhomboid/trapezius (and not the upper
> > trap
> > here), then finish the movement by trying to pull the shoulders as far
> > back and down as you can. Think of trying to get the shoulder blades
> > pinched together.
>
> Other than developing muscles you might otherwise not, what is
> accomplished by pinching the shoulder blades together at the end of a
> seated row? Will it help, e.g., a bench press? I can see that one, but
> I can't see it doing much for an overhead press or deadlift. I can also
> see it being useful for someone who squats with a bar on their backs (as
> opposed to barbell or kettlebell front squats). Not necessarily
> disagreeing, just asking what exactly, if one isn't concerned with
> appearances or necessarily trying to "hit every muscle," this would
> accomplish. I generally find, in my own training, that I want to be
> strong in a more "guard" type of position, e.g., as one is with two
> kettlebells racked on the chest, or a boxer's or martial artist's stance
> in sparring.

The rhomboids are used to stabilize the scapula - virtually any movement
you do with your arms requires scapular stabilization to create force.
Including punching, pulling, throwing, etc. I actually don't do this
movement - but I work the muscles by pulling a dumbbell as high as I can
in a pure pull from the full squat position. I also do a lot of snatch
and OH squats where... gasp... you pinch the shoulder blades to
stabilize. But I doubt Tom does those movements.

And you shouldn't try and be strong in what you call 'the guard'
position (to a MMA your terminology is all screwed up - the guard is on
your back on the ground and you are simply in a stance). You should try
to be relaxed - able to generate speed and not waste energy. A wrestler
or boxer is worried about posture or position when they are in a
defensive stance, but not strength from that position. MMA work very
hard at staying relaxed and not wasting energy.

--
Keith

On Thu, 08 May 2008 07:55:35 -0600, Hobbes <khobman800@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>In article <pij524lg36f5spga4447rmmihlp6r257hd@4ax.com>,
> Charles <jrh@msn.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 08 May 2008 18:44:51 +0930, Bob Volkmer <mfw@vokmer.biz>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Charles wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 8 May 2008 02:54:44 +0100, Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> As the subject line says,
>> >>>
>> >>> How far back should your elbows go in a seated row?
>> >>
>> >> This being essentially a back exercise the ROM of the arms/elbows is
>> >> incidental to good form and ensuring a sensible ROM for the back
>> >> muscles involved.
>> >>
>> >>> I've been bringing them back to the midline of my body, but i've seen
>> >>> people go further, and now i look it up, ExRx and bodybuilding.com say to
>> >>> go further too, so that the elbows are just behind the back, and the
>> >>> wrists are about level with the stomach.
>> >>
>> >> The equipment you are using will normally dictate the ROM of the
>> >> arms/elbows. Hands brought back to mid-level stomach will place elbows
>> >> in the most effective position, with upper body just beyond the
>> >> vertical.
>> >>
>> >>> So, i'm doing 80% partials or something. How does that affect muscle
>> >>> activation? Am i using some muscles more or less than with a rull-ROM
>> >>> row?
>> >>> Any ideas?
>> >>
>> >> You should not even attempt a full ROM of the back muscles involved in
>> >> a seated row, which would undoubtedly cause injury to a very
>> >> susceptible part of the body.
>> >>
>> >> Remember the old training adage: "your back is not a derrick"! ;o)
>> >
>> >
>> >Charles, assuming we are talking a straight back seated row, with good
>> >form, I can't see how a greater ROM will lead to injury.
>>
>> It won't necessarily, but the weight used in a seated row is usually
>> too heavy for full hyper-extension of the back. It is also not good
>> practice to go too far past the vertical because once you start
>> shortening muscles with the line of gravity much benefit is lost.
>>
>> There are much better and safer exercises for that ROM. See:
>> http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...Extension.html
>>
>> I like hypers and reverse hypers on the Swiss Ball.
>>
>> >Naturally with
>> >poor form and a rounded spine I can understand but I am puzzled due to
>> >my ignorance probably how moving the elbows behind the back compared to
>> >midline is inherently dangerous.
>>
>> The position of the elbows is largely irrelevant; it's going too far
>> back with heavy weight which is a potential problem for 'the back'.
>>
>> I trust you are still thriving old friend? ;o)
>
>You really shouldn't be using so much weight that you require hip
>extension to lift it anyhow. But...
>
>People being what they are.

Now there's a truism if ever I heard one! ;o)

How's it going Keith; have you graduated yet and now earning
'loadsamoney'?

In article <of6624td2p70d5bc7e603jsktjol2156pm@4ax.com>,
Charles <jrh@msn.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 08 May 2008 07:55:35 -0600, Hobbes <khobman800@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <pij524lg36f5spga4447rmmihlp6r257hd@4ax.com>,
> > Charles <jrh@msn.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 08 May 2008 18:44:51 +0930, Bob Volkmer <mfw@vokmer.biz>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Charles wrote:
> >> >> On Thu, 8 May 2008 02:54:44 +0100, Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> As the subject line says,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> How far back should your elbows go in a seated row?
> >> >>
> >> >> This being essentially a back exercise the ROM of the arms/elbows is
> >> >> incidental to good form and ensuring a sensible ROM for the back
> >> >> muscles involved.
> >> >>
> >> >>> I've been bringing them back to the midline of my body, but i've seen
> >> >>> people go further, and now i look it up, ExRx and bodybuilding.com say
> >> >>> to
> >> >>> go further too, so that the elbows are just behind the back, and the
> >> >>> wrists are about level with the stomach.
> >> >>
> >> >> The equipment you are using will normally dictate the ROM of the
> >> >> arms/elbows. Hands brought back to mid-level stomach will place elbows
> >> >> in the most effective position, with upper body just beyond the
> >> >> vertical.
> >> >>
> >> >>> So, i'm doing 80% partials or something. How does that affect muscle
> >> >>> activation? Am i using some muscles more or less than with a rull-ROM
> >> >>> row?
> >> >>> Any ideas?
> >> >>
> >> >> You should not even attempt a full ROM of the back muscles involved in
> >> >> a seated row, which would undoubtedly cause injury to a very
> >> >> susceptible part of the body.
> >> >>
> >> >> Remember the old training adage: "your back is not a derrick"! ;o)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Charles, assuming we are talking a straight back seated row, with good
> >> >form, I can't see how a greater ROM will lead to injury.
> >>
> >> It won't necessarily, but the weight used in a seated row is usually
> >> too heavy for full hyper-extension of the back. It is also not good
> >> practice to go too far past the vertical because once you start
> >> shortening muscles with the line of gravity much benefit is lost.
> >>
> >> There are much better and safer exercises for that ROM. See:
> >> http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...Extension.html
> >>
> >> I like hypers and reverse hypers on the Swiss Ball.
> >>
> >> >Naturally with
> >> >poor form and a rounded spine I can understand but I am puzzled due to
> >> >my ignorance probably how moving the elbows behind the back compared to
> >> >midline is inherently dangerous.
> >>
> >> The position of the elbows is largely irrelevant; it's going too far
> >> back with heavy weight which is a potential problem for 'the back'.
> >>
> >> I trust you are still thriving old friend? ;o)
> >
> >You really shouldn't be using so much weight that you require hip
> >extension to lift it anyhow. But...
> >
> >People being what they are.
>
> Now there's a truism if ever I heard one! ;o)
>
> How's it going Keith; have you graduated yet and now earning
> 'loadsamoney'?

I'm earning more money at my current position than I ever will with my
kin degree! But no. I'm still pluggin' away at the paying job.

--
Keith

In article
<khobman800-70F1DC.08594008052008@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
Hobbes <khobman800@yahoo.com> wrote:

> In article <68gfjsF2sfmi6U1@mid.individual.net>,
> "Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
> > "Hobbes" <khobman800@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:khobman800-026ACE.07540708052008@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> > > In article <Pine.LNX.4.64.0805080250390.29094@urchin.earth.li >,
> > > Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
> > >
> > >> As the subject line says,
> > >>
> > >> How far back should your elbows go in a seated row?
> > >>
> > >> I've been bringing them back to the midline of my body, but i've seen
> > >> people go further, and now i look it up, ExRx and bodybuilding.com
> > >> say to
> > >> go further too, so that the elbows are just behind the back, and the
> > >> wrists are about level with the stomach.
> > >>
> > >> So, i'm doing 80% partials or something. How does that affect muscle
> > >> activation? Am i using some muscles more or less than with a rull-ROM
> > >> row?
> > >> Any ideas?
> > >
> > > IF you are thinking lat development I doubt the increased range of
> > > motion will help. If you want rhomboid/trapezius (and not the upper
> > > trap
> > > here), then finish the movement by trying to pull the shoulders as far
> > > back and down as you can. Think of trying to get the shoulder blades
> > > pinched together.
> >
> > Other than developing muscles you might otherwise not, what is
> > accomplished by pinching the shoulder blades together at the end of a
> > seated row? Will it help, e.g., a bench press? I can see that one, but
> > I can't see it doing much for an overhead press or deadlift. I can also
> > see it being useful for someone who squats with a bar on their backs (as
> > opposed to barbell or kettlebell front squats). Not necessarily
> > disagreeing, just asking what exactly, if one isn't concerned with
> > appearances or necessarily trying to "hit every muscle," this would
> > accomplish. I generally find, in my own training, that I want to be
> > strong in a more "guard" type of position, e.g., as one is with two
> > kettlebells racked on the chest, or a boxer's or martial artist's stance
> > in sparring.
>
> The rhomboids are used to stabilize the scapula - virtually any movement
> you do with your arms requires scapular stabilization to create force.
> Including punching, pulling, throwing, etc. I actually don't do this
> movement - but I work the muscles by pulling a dumbbell as high as I can
> in a pure pull from the full squat position. I also do a lot of snatch
> and OH squats where... gasp... you pinch the shoulder blades to
> stabilize. But I doubt Tom does those movements.
>
> And you shouldn't try and be strong in what you call 'the guard'
> position (to a MMA your terminology is all screwed up - the guard is on
> your back on the ground and you are simply in a stance). You should try
> to be relaxed - able to generate speed and not waste energy. A wrestler
> or boxer is worried about posture or position when they are in a
> defensive stance, but not strength from that position. MMA work very
> hard at staying relaxed and not wasting energy.

Oh - you can see my style of performance of dumbbell rows is more like
Shi Zhiyong demonstrates here (second row down)...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dehwang/page2/

Although I often do it more from a full squat.

--
Keith