Shoulders width

Reading old messages about shoulders width and people complaining that
they have to narrow shoulder or too broad shoulders (in relation with
the rest of the body at least) I have seen the common reply is that
your shoulders are determined by your genetic bone structure and you
can't do nothing about it.

Can you explain to me then why all swimmers of whatever age have very
broad shoulders?
Or why gymnastic kids (even those in the 7-10 group) have very large
shoulders?

These activities in some way must affect the shoulders witdh and
therefore there be something people who have too large shoulders or
too narrow shoulders can do to correct their lack of proportion.

Thanks

River wrote:
> Reading old messages about shoulders width and people complaining that
> they have to narrow shoulder or too broad shoulders (in relation with
> the rest of the body at least) I have seen the common reply is that
> your shoulders are determined by your genetic bone structure and you
> can't do nothing about it.
>
> Can you explain to me then why all swimmers of whatever age have very
> broad shoulders?
> Or why gymnastic kids (even those in the 7-10 group) have very large
> shoulders?
>
> These activities in some way must affect the shoulders witdh and
> therefore there be something people who have too large shoulders or
> too narrow shoulders can do to correct their lack of proportion.
>
> Thanks

I think you are seeing a correlation and assuming causation. Have you
considered that people swim a lot or do gymnastics may be advantaged by
having broad shoulders? Basketballers tend to be tall and it isn't
because they play basketball.

Bob

On 19 Lug, 05:53, Bob Volkmer <m...@volkmer.biz> wrote:
> River wrote:
> > Reading old messages about shoulders width and people complaining that
> > they have to narrow shoulder or too broad shoulders (in relation with
> > the rest of the body at least) I have seen the common reply is that
> > your shoulders are determined by your genetic bone structure and you
> > can't do nothing about it.
>
> > Can you explain to me then why all swimmers of whatever age have very
> > broad shoulders?
> > Or why gymnastic kids (even those in the 7-10 group) have very large
> > shoulders?
>
> > These activities in some way must affect the shoulders witdh and
> > therefore there be something people who have too large shoulders or
> > too narrow shoulders can do to correct their lack of proportion.
>
> > Thanks
>
> I think you are seeing a correlation and assuming causation. Have you
> considered that people swim a lot or do gymnastics may be advantaged by
> having broad shoulders? Basketballers tend to be tall and it isn't
> because they play basketball.
>
> Bob

I don't think large shoulders are needed in gymnastics and beside I
have noticed
that kids who want to do gymnastic desire it out of passion, not
because they've
already tested their body and deemed it the correct one for that
activity.
It's a bit like becoming a pianist. No one becomes a pianist because
he/she realize
his/her hands are correct for piano. All of them become pianist
because of a passion
they develop for the sound of piano. In fact a plethora of pianists
possess hands
that are not particularly fit for pianos (very small palm, very short
fingers,
very thick fingers, very short thumb) And broad shoulders in gymnastic
kids seem
universal, whether they're medalists or have not enough talent and
will give up soon.
It would be interesting to see before-after pics to realize whether
the activity in itself
changed something in the body.

Also large shoulders are otherwise very rare in young children and
I've never seen a young
child with very large shoulders except for athletic or gymnastic young
children.
If the activity itself selected those with large shoulders we should
see young children with
large shoulders more often and in other contexts.

I think basketball must do something to increase bone growth in a way.
Funny enough as everyone keep saying that lifting weight stunts
growth, I rememeber
reading certain studies that showed that such activities that place a
burden in the bones
(weight lifting, jumping ...) increases the rate of bone growth in
growing people.
Anecdotally I have to say that I had a classmate who was in basketball
team.
We were 10 year old and the kids in the team were all of average
height and
some where ever shorter. None of them was particularly tall and
nothing in their body
suggested they would become tall. But he indeed became 6.10 as all the
other kids
that were in the team whereas his brothers and parents are all of
average height
on the short side.

Seems to much to me to label them simple coincidences

River wrote:

> On 19 Lug, 05:53, Bob Volkmer <m...@volkmer.biz> wrote:
>> I think you are seeing a correlation and assuming causation. Have you
>> considered that people swim a lot or do gymnastics may be advantaged by
>> having broad shoulders? Basketballers tend to be tall and it isn't
>> because they play basketball.
>>
>> Bob
>
> I don't think large shoulders are needed in gymnastics and beside I
> have noticed
> that kids who want to do gymnastic desire it out of passion, not
> because they've
> already tested their body and deemed it the correct one for that
> activity.
> It's a bit like becoming a pianist. No one becomes a pianist because
> he/she realize
> his/her hands are correct for piano. All of them become pianist
> because of a passion
> they develop for the sound of piano. In fact a plethora of pianists
> possess hands
> that are not particularly fit for pianos (very small palm, very short
> fingers,
> very thick fingers, very short thumb) And broad shoulders in gymnastic
> kids seem
> universal, whether they're medalists or have not enough talent and
> will give up soon.
> It would be interesting to see before-after pics to realize whether
> the activity in itself
> changed something in the body.
>
> Also large shoulders are otherwise very rare in young children and
> I've never seen a young
> child with very large shoulders except for athletic or gymnastic young
> children.
> If the activity itself selected those with large shoulders we should
> see young children with
> large shoulders more often and in other contexts.
>
> I think basketball must do something to increase bone growth in a way.

Man, that is some crazy stuff you just wrote. While earlier you have some
merit, and training plus diet can change the way your body looks, it has
nothing to do with bones. It affects muscles, fat and tendons. Even bone
mass doesn't seem to be affected by weight training, which some time ago
looked plausible.

> Funny enough as everyone keep saying that lifting weight stunts
> growth, I rememeber
> reading certain studies that showed that such activities that place a
> burden in the bones
> (weight lifting, jumping ...) increases the rate of bone growth in
> growing people.

Actually gymnasts have a reason to grow a little, and it's not about putting
burden but about taking it away. I'm aware about a whole bunch of
anecdotal evidence and similar treatments are standard stuff for unequal
leg length and probably other problems too (googlable, I'm sure), so there
you are. While gymnasts aren't midgets, they are not tall. Sorry mate.

> Anecdotally I have to say that I had a classmate who was in basketball
> team.
> We were 10 year old and the kids in the team were all of average
> height and
> some where ever shorter. None of them was particularly tall and
> nothing in their body
> suggested they would become tall. But he indeed became 6.10 as all the
> other kids
> that were in the team whereas his brothers and parents are all of
> average height
> on the short side.
>
> Seems to much to me to label them simple coincidences

Don't write stuff like that. It makes me cringe, and DZ will have a
seizure. He's a statistician, you know.

--
Andrzej Rosa

> Man, that is some crazy stuff you just wrote. While earlier you have some
> merit, and training plus diet can change the way your body looks, it has
> nothing to do with bones. It affects muscles, fat and tendons.

Are you saying that the change in fat, muscles and tendons and all the
possible
minute variations can give the "illusion" of large shoulders? Because
the theory
that people realize they have large shoulders and that's why they
choose certain
sports instead of others doesn't seem very plausible.

> Even bone
> mass doesn't seem to be affected by weight training, which some time ago
> looked plausible.

Studies say otherwise though. And bone mass after growth aside they
also say that
weight bearing stimulus stimulate bone growth in children.

River wrote:
> Reading old messages about shoulders width and people complaining that
> they have to narrow shoulder or too broad shoulders (in relation with
> the rest of the body at least) I have seen the common reply is that
> your shoulders are determined by your genetic bone structure and you
> can't do nothing about it.
>
> Can you explain to me then why all swimmers of whatever age have very
> broad shoulders?
> Or why gymnastic kids (even those in the 7-10 group) have very large
> shoulders?
>
> These activities in some way must affect the shoulders witdh and
> therefore there be something people who have too large shoulders or
> too narrow shoulders can do to correct their lack of proportion.
>
> Thanks

1. Muscle is not bone. Spot the difference and win valuable prizes

2. People with different proportions tend to do better in certain
sports. For exmple, the number of 5'2" pro basketball players is very
low. Playing basketball does not make you taller, just like swimming
does not make your clavicles magically extend further from your midline.

Ari

--
spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply
Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant. Please
volunteer to be a marrow donor and literally save someone's life:
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http://www.marrow.org/

River wrote:

>
>> Man, that is some crazy stuff you just wrote. While earlier you have
>> some merit, and training plus diet can change the way your body looks, it
>> has
>> nothing to do with bones. It affects muscles, fat and tendons.
>
> Are you saying that the change in fat, muscles and tendons and all the
> possible
> minute variations can give the "illusion" of large shoulders?

They get larger for real, just not broader.

> Because
> the theory
> that people realize they have large shoulders and that's why they
> choose certain
> sports instead of others doesn't seem very plausible.

I choosed to lift weights, but you will not see me winning many
competitions...

>> Even bone
>> mass doesn't seem to be affected by weight training, which some time ago
>> looked plausible.
>
> Studies say otherwise though. And bone mass after growth aside they
> also say that
> weight bearing stimulus stimulate bone growth in children.

Whatever. I'm not a fan of pubmed searches, but I say what I read. People
tended to think that weight training makes your bones thicker, because
older people who trained had significantly lower amount of fructures.
Nowadays they rather think, that being stronger makes you fall less often,
but your bones are as weak as in untrained subjects.

--
Andrzej Rosa

On 19 Lug, 10:55, spodosaurus <spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote:
> River wrote:
> > Reading old messages about shoulders width and people complaining that
> > they have to narrow shoulder or too broad shoulders (in relation with
> > the rest of the body at least) I have seen the common reply is that
> > your shoulders are determined by your genetic bone structure and you
> > can't do nothing about it.
>
> > Can you explain to me then why all swimmers of whatever age have very
> > broad shoulders?
> > Or why gymnastic kids (even those in the 7-10 group) have very large
> > shoulders?
>
> > These activities in some way must affect the shoulders witdh and
> > therefore there be something people who have too large shoulders or
> > too narrow shoulders can do to correct their lack of proportion.
>
> > Thanks
>
> 1. Muscle is not bone. Spot the difference and win valuable prizes

Bones like muscles react to stimulus and this has an effect during
growth.

> 2. People with different proportions tend to do better in certain
> sports. For exmple, the number of 5'2" pro basketball players is very
> low. Playing basketball does not make you taller, just like swimming
> does not make your clavicles magically extend further from your midline.

So I bring my cousin to the gym where 50 gymnastic kids are training.
All of them have huge shoulders that you would never seen in a child
that young.

Now are you saying that all those children watched themselves in the
mirror, recognized
constitutional large shoulders and chose therefore to become gymnasts?

Are you saying that only children with large shoulders were good
enough to be allowed
at the training and they automatically did't admit children with
normal shoulders?

Or are you saying that those children realized to be good at gymnastic
movements before
attending a gym (how? using tree branches?) and all the good at those
movement children had
large shoulders because only if you have large shoulders you can do
thove grooves?

> Are you saying that the change in fat, muscles and tendons and all the
> possible
> minute variations can give the "illusion" of large shoulders?

>They get larger for real, just not broader.

Are you saying the activity make them larger?

> Whatever. I'm not a fan of pubmed searches, but I say what I read. People
> tended to think that weight training makes your bones thicker, because
> older people who trained had significantly lower amount of fructures.
> Nowadays they rather think, that being stronger makes you fall less often,
> but your bones are as weak as in untrained subjects.

More simply they took a certain number of subjects and measured their
bone density
and made they train with weight for 12 months and then they measured
again their bone
density and saw it had increased. This is simpler than assuming how
many time people
fall.

River wrote:
> On 19 Lug, 10:55, spodosaurus <spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote:
>> River wrote:
>>> Reading old messages about shoulders width and people complaining that
>>> they have to narrow shoulder or too broad shoulders (in relation with
>>> the rest of the body at least) I have seen the common reply is that
>>> your shoulders are determined by your genetic bone structure and you
>>> can't do nothing about it.
>>> Can you explain to me then why all swimmers of whatever age have very
>>> broad shoulders?
>>> Or why gymnastic kids (even those in the 7-10 group) have very large
>>> shoulders?
>>> These activities in some way must affect the shoulders witdh and
>>> therefore there be something people who have too large shoulders or
>>> too narrow shoulders can do to correct their lack of proportion.
>>> Thanks
>> 1. Muscle is not bone. Spot the difference and win valuable prizes
>
> Bones like muscles react to stimulus and this has an effect during
> growth.
>

So making a general statement like that must make anything else true, too.

>> 2. People with different proportions tend to do better in certain
>> sports. For exmple, the number of 5'2" pro basketball players is very
>> low. Playing basketball does not make you taller, just like swimming
>> does not make your clavicles magically extend further from your midline.
>
> So I bring my cousin to the gym where 50 gymnastic kids are training.
> All of them have huge shoulders that you would never seen in a child
> that young.

Have YOU ever tried gymnastics? The shoulder strength required is
phenomenal, at any age. Of course you're going to get larger muscles.

>
> Now are you saying that all those children watched themselves in the
> mirror, recognized
> constitutional large shoulders and chose therefore to become gymnasts?

No, you pulled that inane shite out of yer bum.

>
> Are you saying that only children with large shoulders were good
> enough to be allowed
> at the training and they automatically did't admit children with
> normal shoulders?

No, you pulled that shite out of yer bum, too.

>
> Or are you saying that those children realized to be good at gymnastic
> movements before
> attending a gym (how? using tree branches?) and all the good at those
> movement children had
> large shoulders because only if you have large shoulders you can do
> thove grooves?

Again, more shite pulled from yer bum.

If you have anything more than marijuana induced ponderings that you
think sound 'rilly rilly profound, dude' please post references to them.
And don't waste my time with crap posted online by some other marijuana
smoking buttlicker who also thought he was 'on to something'...

I had a read of one of your replies where you suggested that playing
basketball results in kids growing to 7ft tall. You're an uneducated
cretin who smokes too much in order to feel like you haven't pissed away
your potential which wasn't even mediocre to begin with. No matter how
much you get a kid to jump up and down, it is NOT going to make a kid
who is going to be a 5'6" adult into a 6'8" adult. Don't bother arguing
the point, you're wrong.

Cheers! (David hates this)

Ari



--
spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply
Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant. Please
volunteer to be a marrow donor and literally save someone's life:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

River wrote:
>> Are you saying that the change in fat, muscles and tendons and all the
>> possible
>> minute variations can give the "illusion" of large shoulders?
>
>> They get larger for real, just not broader.
>
> Are you saying the activity make them larger?
>
>> Whatever. I'm not a fan of pubmed searches, but I say what I read. People
>> tended to think that weight training makes your bones thicker, because
>> older people who trained had significantly lower amount of fructures.
>> Nowadays they rather think, that being stronger makes you fall less often,
>> but your bones are as weak as in untrained subjects.
>
> More simply they took a certain number of subjects and measured their
> bone density
> and made they train with weight for 12 months and then they measured
> again their bone
> density and saw it had increased. This is simpler than assuming how
> many time people
> fall.

So, once again, you're saying that someone who has a STATISTICALLY
significant increase in bone density but who is still osteoporotic is
somehow immune from fractures? Andrez is right: the increased physical
activity and muscle strength prevented falls leading to fractures.

Ari

--
spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply
Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant. Please
volunteer to be a marrow donor and literally save someone's life:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 05:15:39 -0700 (PDT), River <young_river@naturemail.net> wrote:

>> Are you saying that the change in fat, muscles and tendons and all the
>> possible
>> minute variations can give the "illusion" of large shoulders?
>
>>They get larger for real, just not broader.
>
>Are you saying the activity make them larger?
>
>> Whatever. I'm not a fan of pubmed searches, but I say what I read. People
>> tended to think that weight training makes your bones thicker, because
>> older people who trained had significantly lower amount of fructures.
>> Nowadays they rather think, that being stronger makes you fall less often,
>> but your bones are as weak as in untrained subjects.
>
>More simply they took a certain number of subjects and measured their
>bone density
>and made they train with weight for 12 months and then they measured
>again their bone
>density and saw it had increased.

Wouldn't this apply to just about ANY kid? (Not chained to the sofa, anyway?)

Mind you, I'm not saying that chaining a kid to the sofa is _always_ a bad idea....


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 05:20:31 -0700 (PDT), River <young_river@naturemail.net> wrote:

>On 19 Lug, 10:55, spodosaurus <spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote:
>> River wrote:
>> > Reading old messages about shoulders width and people complaining that
>> > they have to narrow shoulder or too broad shoulders (in relation with
>> > the rest of the body at least) I have seen the common reply is that
>> > your shoulders are determined by your genetic bone structure and you
>> > can't do nothing about it.
>>
>> > Can you explain to me then why all swimmers of whatever age have very
>> > broad shoulders?
>> > Or why gymnastic kids (even those in the 7-10 group) have very large
>> > shoulders?
>>
>> > These activities in some way must affect the shoulders witdh and
>> > therefore there be something people who have too large shoulders or
>> > too narrow shoulders can do to correct their lack of proportion.
>>
>> > Thanks
>>
>> 1. Muscle is not bone. Spot the difference and win valuable prizes
>
>Bones like muscles react to stimulus and this has an effect during
>growth.
>
>> 2. People with different proportions tend to do better in certain
>> sports. For exmple, the number of 5'2" pro basketball players is very
>> low. Playing basketball does not make you taller, just like swimming
>> does not make your clavicles magically extend further from your midline.
>
>So I bring my cousin to the gym where 50 gymnastic kids are training.
>All of them have huge shoulders that you would never seen in a child
>that young.

_huge_ shoulders? Or, simply, more _prominent_ shoulders because of better
visual definition due to low bodyfat level and more hypertrophy of the shoulders
(and the torso as a whole)?

>Now are you saying that all those children watched themselves in the
>mirror, recognized
>constitutional large shoulders and chose therefore to become gymnasts?

No, we're saying your judgement is whack.

>Are you saying that only children with large shoulders were good
>enough to be allowed
>at the training and they automatically did't admit children with
>normal shoulders?

In China, that's actually more or less the case.

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
> River wrote:
>> Funny enough as everyone keep saying that lifting weight stunts
>> growth, I rememeber reading certain studies that showed that such
>> activities that place a burden in the bones (weight lifting,
>> jumping ...) increases the rate of bone growth in growing people.
[...]
>> Anecdotally I have to say that [...] Seems to much to me to label
>> them simple coincidences
>
> Don't write stuff like that. It makes me cringe, and DZ will have a
> seizure. He's a statistician, you know.

Bone structure does change in children due weight lifting and exercise
that creates impact (e.g. jumping). They think that it changes in a
way to maximize performance. That is, it is possible that you may end
up with wider shoulders if you do gymnastics at young age.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...rcise+children

BTW, you you look at any of my relatives, you'd never suspect that I
may have an athletic build. I made it a rule when I was a boy to do
pullups during all breaks between classes. Of course, I was using
kettlebells too.

BTW1 I'm not good at statistics either, and really quite a dumb
guy. You see, I'm just very persistent in everything I do. How do you
get MASSIVE arms like mine? You go to the gym for 20 years and do
these 3 exercises: weighted pullups and dips, and military press.
That's it.

BTW2, Arnold said something to the extend that while it is not
believed that adults respond that way, he witnessed too many times
that barbell pullovers do make your barrel hoooge :-)

River <young_river@naturemail.net> wrote in news:821d0dbd-1e01-4415-80a0-
ee313c2e9f72@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:


> Can you explain to me then why all swimmers of whatever age have very
> broad shoulders?
> Or why gymnastic kids (even those in the 7-10 group) have very large
> shoulders?

Hey! Welcome back, PaW!

DZ wrote:
> Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> River wrote:
>>> Funny enough as everyone keep saying that lifting weight stunts
>>> growth, I rememeber reading certain studies that showed that such
>>> activities that place a burden in the bones (weight lifting,
>>> jumping ...) increases the rate of bone growth in growing people.
> [...]
>>> Anecdotally I have to say that [...] Seems to much to me to label
>>> them simple coincidences
>> Don't write stuff like that. It makes me cringe, and DZ will have a
>> seizure. He's a statistician, you know.
>
> Bone structure does change in children due weight lifting and exercise
> that creates impact (e.g. jumping). They think that it changes in a
> way to maximize performance. That is, it is possible that you may end
> up with wider shoulders if you do gymnastics at young age.
> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...rcise+children
>

Could you please pick a specific study from that list that shows bone
lengthening for the clavicle (a rather odd bone when compared with other
animals and even other mammals) rather than bone density changes?

spodosaurus <spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote:
> DZ wrote:
>> Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> River wrote:
>>>> Funny enough as everyone keep saying that lifting weight stunts
>>>> growth, I rememeber reading certain studies that showed that such
>>>> activities that place a burden in the bones (weight lifting,
>>>> jumping ...) increases the rate of bone growth in growing people.
>> [...]
>>>> Anecdotally I have to say that [...] Seems to much to me to label
>>>> them simple coincidences
>>> Don't write stuff like that. It makes me cringe, and DZ will have a
>>> seizure. He's a statistician, you know.
>>
>> Bone structure does change in children due weight lifting and exercise
>> that creates impact (e.g. jumping). They think that it changes in a
>> way to maximize performance. That is, it is possible that you may end
>> up with wider shoulders if you do gymnastics at young age.
>> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...rcise+children
>
> Could you please pick a specific study from that list that shows bone
> lengthening for the clavicle (a rather odd bone when compared with other
> animals and even other mammals) rather than bone density changes?

I don't really follow (I *am* dumb, I'm not kiddding). Are you
questioning the concept that bone growth can be promoted by exercise
at young age, or do you think that it is true in general, while
shoulders are an exception?

DZ wrote:
> spodosaurus <spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote:
>> DZ wrote:
>>> Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> River wrote:
>>>>> Funny enough as everyone keep saying that lifting weight stunts
>>>>> growth, I rememeber reading certain studies that showed that such
>>>>> activities that place a burden in the bones (weight lifting,
>>>>> jumping ...) increases the rate of bone growth in growing people.
>>> [...]
>>>>> Anecdotally I have to say that [...] Seems to much to me to label
>>>>> them simple coincidences
>>>> Don't write stuff like that. It makes me cringe, and DZ will have a
>>>> seizure. He's a statistician, you know.
>>> Bone structure does change in children due weight lifting and exercise
>>> that creates impact (e.g. jumping). They think that it changes in a
>>> way to maximize performance. That is, it is possible that you may end
>>> up with wider shoulders if you do gymnastics at young age.
>>> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...rcise+children
>> Could you please pick a specific study from that list that shows bone
>> lengthening for the clavicle (a rather odd bone when compared with other
>> animals and even other mammals) rather than bone density changes?
>
> I don't really follow (I *am* dumb, I'm not kiddding). Are you
> questioning the concept that bone growth can be promoted by exercise
> at young age, or do you think that it is true in general, while
> shoulders are an exception?

Bones can lengthen during growth (and that is pre-determined but diet
has a significant effect), they can thicken (slightly) or their density
can increase. The studies show an increase in bone density, not length.

As our 'nym shifitng OP (PaW, river, etc) is trying to say that
basketball makes people taller he really needs to go and read who
Lamarck was and why his pot fuelled prophecies make it clear to us all
that he's a complete cretin.

Ari

--
spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply
Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant. Please
volunteer to be a marrow donor and literally save someone's life:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

"spodosaurus" <spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote in message
news:4882dadb$0$20559$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> DZ wrote:
>> spodosaurus <spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote:
>>> DZ wrote:
>>>> Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> River wrote:
>>>>>> Funny enough as everyone keep saying that lifting weight stunts
>>>>>> growth, I rememeber reading certain studies that showed that such
>>>>>> activities that place a burden in the bones (weight lifting,
>>>>>> jumping ...) increases the rate of bone growth in growing people.
>>>> [...]
>>>>>> Anecdotally I have to say that [...] Seems to much to me to label
>>>>>> them simple coincidences
>>>>> Don't write stuff like that. It makes me cringe, and DZ will have a
>>>>> seizure. He's a statistician, you know.
>>>> Bone structure does change in children due weight lifting and exercise
>>>> that creates impact (e.g. jumping). They think that it changes in a
>>>> way to maximize performance. That is, it is possible that you may end
>>>> up with wider shoulders if you do gymnastics at young age.
>>>> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...rcise+children
>>> Could you please pick a specific study from that list that shows bone
>>> lengthening for the clavicle (a rather odd bone when compared with other
>>> animals and even other mammals) rather than bone density changes?
>>
>> I don't really follow (I *am* dumb, I'm not kiddding). Are you
>> questioning the concept that bone growth can be promoted by exercise
>> at young age, or do you think that it is true in general, while
>> shoulders are an exception?
>
> Bones can lengthen during growth (and that is pre-determined but diet has
> a significant effect), they can thicken (slightly) or their density can
> increase. The studies show an increase in bone density, not length.
>
> As our 'nym shifitng OP (PaW, river, etc) is trying to say that basketball
> makes people taller he really needs to go and read who Lamarck was and why
> his pot fuelled prophecies make it clear to us all that he's a complete
> cretin.
>
> Ari
>
It's Prisoner Ass Whore? I should have known. WRT bone growth, if diet has a
significant effect training might as well, since it's not so easy to
separate a single factor in a complex interactive system. We know that
training affects appetite and hormones, among other things, so it could
conceivably stunt growth or allow for the individual's full genetic
potential to develop.

ATP* wrote:
> "spodosaurus" <spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote in message
> news:4882dadb$0$20559$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>> DZ wrote:
>>> spodosaurus <spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote:
>>>> DZ wrote:
>>>>> Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> River wrote:
>>>>>>> Funny enough as everyone keep saying that lifting weight stunts
>>>>>>> growth, I rememeber reading certain studies that showed that such
>>>>>>> activities that place a burden in the bones (weight lifting,
>>>>>>> jumping ...) increases the rate of bone growth in growing people.
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>> Anecdotally I have to say that [...] Seems to much to me to label
>>>>>>> them simple coincidences
>>>>>> Don't write stuff like that. It makes me cringe, and DZ will have a
>>>>>> seizure. He's a statistician, you know.
>>>>> Bone structure does change in children due weight lifting and exercise
>>>>> that creates impact (e.g. jumping). They think that it changes in a
>>>>> way to maximize performance. That is, it is possible that you may end
>>>>> up with wider shoulders if you do gymnastics at young age.
>>>>> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...rcise+children
>>>> Could you please pick a specific study from that list that shows bone
>>>> lengthening for the clavicle (a rather odd bone when compared with other
>>>> animals and even other mammals) rather than bone density changes?
>>> I don't really follow (I *am* dumb, I'm not kiddding). Are you
>>> questioning the concept that bone growth can be promoted by exercise
>>> at young age, or do you think that it is true in general, while
>>> shoulders are an exception?
>> Bones can lengthen during growth (and that is pre-determined but diet has
>> a significant effect), they can thicken (slightly) or their density can
>> increase. The studies show an increase in bone density, not length.
>>
>> As our 'nym shifitng OP (PaW, river, etc) is trying to say that basketball
>> makes people taller he really needs to go and read who Lamarck was and why
>> his pot fuelled prophecies make it clear to us all that he's a complete
>> cretin.
>>
>> Ari
>>
> It's Prisoner Ass Whore? I should have known. WRT bone growth, if diet has a
> significant effect training might as well, since it's not so easy to
> separate a single factor in a complex interactive system.

When I spoke about diet having a potential to increase height, I SHOULD
have said that a deficient diet could reduce the chances of reaching
ones height potential. It does not, in actual fact, increase height.

> We know that
> training affects appetite and hormones, among other things, so it could
> conceivably stunt growth or allow for the individual's full genetic
> potential to develop.

Unfortunately no amount of basketball playing, gymnastics, or weight
training is going to make an adult get wider shoulders or cause a child
to grow longer bones. A pituitary tumour, on the other hand, sometimes
results in Chinese people born to 5'6" parents growing to 7'+ heights.
I've yet to come across anything that suggests that playing basketball
induces pituitary tumours (and I'm fairly certain that basketball
would no longer be a sport that parents would approve of their children
playing if evidence ever arose suggesting that the sport had a mutagenic
effect on the hypophysis).

Ari


--
spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply
Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant. Please
volunteer to be a marrow donor and literally save someone's life:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

In article <Q4-dnU3AN5bQ-BzVnZ2dnUVZ_tbinZ2d@posted.internode>,
Bob Volkmer <mfw@volkmer.biz> wrote:

> River wrote:
> > Reading old messages about shoulders width and people complaining that
> > they have to narrow shoulder or too broad shoulders (in relation with
> > the rest of the body at least) I have seen the common reply is that
> > your shoulders are determined by your genetic bone structure and you
> > can't do nothing about it.
> >
> > Can you explain to me then why all swimmers of whatever age have very
> > broad shoulders?
> > Or why gymnastic kids (even those in the 7-10 group) have very large
> > shoulders?
> >
> > These activities in some way must affect the shoulders witdh and
> > therefore there be something people who have too large shoulders or
> > too narrow shoulders can do to correct their lack of proportion.
> >
> > Thanks
>
> I think you are seeing a correlation and assuming causation. Have you
> considered that people swim a lot or do gymnastics may be advantaged by
> having broad shoulders? Basketballers tend to be tall and it isn't
> because they play basketball.
>
> Bob

That might partly explain it.

However, bone is metabolically active and adapts to stimulus. The length
of the bone is fixed when the epiphyseal bone plate seals during the
teen years, but prior to that? If bones can still grow thicker from
stimulus at any age is it unrealistic to think they won't grow longer at
stimulus prior to the bone plate sealing? I don't think this is an
unrealistic expectation.

So to me there are many things happening here. Low bodyfat and well
developed musculature. Certain body types have advantages in these
sports and are attracted to them. And...

there is a possibility here of bone adapting to the stress.

spodosaurus <spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote:
> DZ wrote:
>> spodosaurus <spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote:
>>> DZ wrote:
>>>> Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> River wrote:
>>>>>> Funny enough as everyone keep saying that lifting weight stunts
>>>>>> growth, I rememeber reading certain studies that showed that such
>>>>>> activities that place a burden in the bones (weight lifting,
>>>>>> jumping ...) increases the rate of bone growth in growing people.
>>>> [...]
>>>>>> Anecdotally I have to say that [...] Seems to much to me to label
>>>>>> them simple coincidences
>>>>> Don't write stuff like that. It makes me cringe, and DZ will have a
>>>>> seizure. He's a statistician, you know.
>>>> Bone structure does change in children due weight lifting and exercise
>>>> that creates impact (e.g. jumping). They think that it changes in a
>>>> way to maximize performance. That is, it is possible that you may end
>>>> up with wider shoulders if you do gymnastics at young age.
>>>> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...rcise+children
>>> Could you please pick a specific study from that list that shows bone
>>> lengthening for the clavicle (a rather odd bone when compared with other
>>> animals and even other mammals) rather than bone density changes?
>>
>> I don't really follow (I *am* dumb, I'm not kiddding). Are you
>> questioning the concept that bone growth can be promoted by exercise
>> at young age, or do you think that it is true in general, while
>> shoulders are an exception?
>
> Bones can lengthen during growth (and that is pre-determined but diet
> has a significant effect), they can thicken (slightly) or their density
> can increase. The studies show an increase in bone density, not length.

Studies, some of which I found before posting the search string above,
do claim and show an increase in bone size.

> As our 'nym shifitng OP (PaW, river, etc)

River is posting from a modem connection with an Italy address.

> is trying to say that basketball makes people taller he really needs
> to go and read who Lamarck was and why his pot fuelled prophecies
> make it clear to us all that he's a complete cretin.

But Lamarck was talking about what happens in the offspring of parents
whose phenotype was somehow changed due to environment.

The general idea of phenotype change due to environment is not at all
kooky.

DZ wrote:
> spodosaurus <spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote:
>> DZ wrote:
>>> spodosaurus <spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote:
>>>> DZ wrote:
>>>>> Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> River wrote:
>>>>>>> Funny enough as everyone keep saying that lifting weight stunts
>>>>>>> growth, I rememeber reading certain studies that showed that such
>>>>>>> activities that place a burden in the bones (weight lifting,
>>>>>>> jumping ...) increases the rate of bone growth in growing people.
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>> Anecdotally I have to say that [...] Seems to much to me to label
>>>>>>> them simple coincidences
>>>>>> Don't write stuff like that. It makes me cringe, and DZ will have a
>>>>>> seizure. He's a statistician, you know.
>>>>> Bone structure does change in children due weight lifting and exercise
>>>>> that creates impact (e.g. jumping). They think that it changes in a
>>>>> way to maximize performance. That is, it is possible that you may end
>>>>> up with wider shoulders if you do gymnastics at young age.
>>>>> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...rcise+children
>>>> Could you please pick a specific study from that list that shows bone
>>>> lengthening for the clavicle (a rather odd bone when compared with other
>>>> animals and even other mammals) rather than bone density changes?
>>> I don't really follow (I *am* dumb, I'm not kiddding). Are you
>>> questioning the concept that bone growth can be promoted by exercise
>>> at young age, or do you think that it is true in general, while
>>> shoulders are an exception?
>> Bones can lengthen during growth (and that is pre-determined but diet
>> has a significant effect), they can thicken (slightly) or their density
>> can increase. The studies show an increase in bone density, not length.
>
> Studies, some of which I found before posting the search string above,
> do claim and show an increase in bone size.

So we're talking diameter of the long bones? What did the studies define
size as?

>
>> As our 'nym shifitng OP (PaW, river, etc)
>
> River is posting from a modem connection with an Italy address.
>
>> is trying to say that basketball makes people taller he really needs
>> to go and read who Lamarck was and why his pot fuelled prophecies
>> make it clear to us all that he's a complete cretin.
>
> But Lamarck was talking about what happens in the offspring of parents
> whose phenotype was somehow changed due to environment.
>
> The general idea of phenotype change due to environment is not at all
> kooky.

I know, but it's so reminiscent of the giraffe stretching it's neck out
to reach the upper leaves I couldn't resist

Ari


--
spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply
Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant. Please
volunteer to be a marrow donor and literally save someone's life:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

Keith wrote:
> In article <Q4-dnU3AN5bQ-BzVnZ2dnUVZ_tbinZ2d@posted.internode>,
> Bob Volkmer <mfw@volkmer.biz> wrote:
>
>> River wrote:
>>> Reading old messages about shoulders width and people complaining that
>>> they have to narrow shoulder or too broad shoulders (in relation with
>>> the rest of the body at least) I have seen the common reply is that
>>> your shoulders are determined by your genetic bone structure and you
>>> can't do nothing about it.
>>>
>>> Can you explain to me then why all swimmers of whatever age have very
>>> broad shoulders?
>>> Or why gymnastic kids (even those in the 7-10 group) have very large
>>> shoulders?
>>>
>>> These activities in some way must affect the shoulders witdh and
>>> therefore there be something people who have too large shoulders or
>>> too narrow shoulders can do to correct their lack of proportion.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>> I think you are seeing a correlation and assuming causation. Have you
>> considered that people swim a lot or do gymnastics may be advantaged by
>> having broad shoulders? Basketballers tend to be tall and it isn't
>> because they play basketball.
>>
>> Bob
>
> That might partly explain it.
>
> However, bone is metabolically active and adapts to stimulus.

As is the case with a great many tissues

> The length
> of the bone is fixed when the epiphyseal bone plate seals during the
> teen years, but prior to that? If bones can still grow thicker from
> stimulus at any age is it unrealistic to think they won't grow longer at
> stimulus prior to the bone plate sealing? I don't think this is an
> unrealistic expectation.

Armchair hypothesizing aside, it does not happen. You can force a kid to
swim laps until child protection comes and takes the kid away, the
child's clavicles are not going to keep extending further and further
away from his rib cage

>
> So to me there are many things happening here. Low bodyfat and well
> developed musculature. Certain body types have advantages in these
> sports and are attracted to them. And...
>
> there is a possibility here of bone adapting to the stress.

Yes, but adapting is a very broad term. River is claiming playing
basketball makes kids taller. It does not. It may give them increased
bone density (statistically significant, and according to one study long
lasting), but it does not leave them with extremely long legs and little
stumpy arms

Ari


--
spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply
Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant. Please
volunteer to be a marrow donor and literally save someone's life:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

spodosaurus <spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote:
> DZ wrote:
>> spodosaurus <spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote:
>>> DZ wrote:
>>>> spodosaurus <spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote:
>>>>> DZ wrote:
>>>>>> Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> River wrote:
>>>>>>>> Funny enough as everyone keep saying that lifting weight stunts
>>>>>>>> growth, I rememeber reading certain studies that showed that such
>>>>>>>> activities that place a burden in the bones (weight lifting,
>>>>>>>> jumping ...) increases the rate of bone growth in growing people.
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>> Anecdotally I have to say that [...] Seems to much to me to label
>>>>>>>> them simple coincidences
>>>>>>> Don't write stuff like that. It makes me cringe, and DZ will have a
>>>>>>> seizure. He's a statistician, you know.
>>>>>> Bone structure does change in children due weight lifting and exercise
>>>>>> that creates impact (e.g. jumping). They think that it changes in a
>>>>>> way to maximize performance. That is, it is possible that you may end
>>>>>> up with wider shoulders if you do gymnastics at young age.
>>>>>> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...rcise+children
>>>>> Could you please pick a specific study from that list that shows bone
>>>>> lengthening for the clavicle (a rather odd bone when compared with other
>>>>> animals and even other mammals) rather than bone density changes?
>>>> I don't really follow (I *am* dumb, I'm not kiddding). Are you
>>>> questioning the concept that bone growth can be promoted by exercise
>>>> at young age, or do you think that it is true in general, while
>>>> shoulders are an exception?
>>> Bones can lengthen during growth (and that is pre-determined but diet
>>> has a significant effect), they can thicken (slightly) or their density
>>> can increase. The studies show an increase in bone density, not length.
>>
>> Studies, some of which I found before posting the search string above,
>> do claim and show an increase in bone size.
>
> So we're talking diameter of the long bones? What did the studies define
> size as?

Bone area. Of course, design of many of these studies can be
criticized. It is impossible to "prescribe" years of certain type of
exercise to growing children, thus self-selection on the basis of
having heredity for the sport cannot be eliminated; but they're trying
their best. All I'm saying is that it is an idea that doen't seem to
be all that crazy.

Here is one that I just dugup.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10954774
They looked at the bone area in 3 groups of girls

(1) competitive rope-skipping; (2) soccer play; (3) lazy bums

"The skipping group had a significantly higher area of the total body
[they refer to bone area], total femur, and proximal tibia than the
other groups. They also had a significantly higher bone area of the
tibia diaphysis compared with the soccer group."

Excerpt from their table:
Group 1 Group 2 Group 3
Total femur 192.9 +- 21.4 172.2 +- 11.1 172.4 +- 20.1
Proximal tibia 47.1 +-3.6 42.5 +- 2 42.9 +- 2.8
Tibia diaphysis 26.1 +- 2 23.3 +- 1.5 24.6 +- 2.6

Here is a paper that talks about possible mechanisms:
http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/full/206/18/3125

DZ wrote:
> spodosaurus <spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote:
>> DZ wrote:
>>> spodosaurus <spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote:
>>>> DZ wrote:
>>>>> spodosaurus <spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote:
>>>>>> DZ wrote:
>>>>>>> Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> River wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Funny enough as everyone keep saying that lifting weight stunts
>>>>>>>>> growth, I rememeber reading certain studies that showed that such
>>>>>>>>> activities that place a burden in the bones (weight lifting,
>>>>>>>>> jumping ...) increases the rate of bone growth in growing people.
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>> Anecdotally I have to say that [...] Seems to much to me to label
>>>>>>>>> them simple coincidences
>>>>>>>> Don't write stuff like that. It makes me cringe, and DZ will have a
>>>>>>>> seizure. He's a statistician, you know.
>>>>>>> Bone structure does change in children due weight lifting and exercise
>>>>>>> that creates impact (e.g. jumping). They think that it changes in a
>>>>>>> way to maximize performance. That is, it is possible that you may end
>>>>>>> up with wider shoulders if you do gymnastics at young age.
>>>>>>> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...rcise+children
>>>>>> Could you please pick a specific study from that list that shows bone
>>>>>> lengthening for the clavicle (a rather odd bone when compared with other
>>>>>> animals and even other mammals) rather than bone density changes?
>>>>> I don't really follow (I *am* dumb, I'm not kiddding). Are you
>>>>> questioning the concept that bone growth can be promoted by exercise
>>>>> at young age, or do you think that it is true in general, while
>>>>> shoulders are an exception?
>>>> Bones can lengthen during growth (and that is pre-determined but diet
>>>> has a significant effect), they can thicken (slightly) or their density
>>>> can increase. The studies show an increase in bone density, not length.
>>> Studies, some of which I found before posting the search string above,
>>> do claim and show an increase in bone size.
>> So we're talking diameter of the long bones? What did the studies define
>> size as?
>
> Bone area. Of course, design of many of these studies can be
> criticized. It is impossible to "prescribe" years of certain type of
> exercise to growing children, thus self-selection on the basis of
> having heredity for the sport cannot be eliminated; but they're trying
> their best. All I'm saying is that it is an idea that doen't seem to
> be all that crazy.
>
> Here is one that I just dugup.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10954774
> They looked at the bone area in 3 groups of girls
>
> (1) competitive rope-skipping; (2) soccer play; (3) lazy bums
>
> "The skipping group had a significantly higher area of the total body
> [they refer to bone area], total femur, and proximal tibia than the
> other groups. They also had a significantly higher bone area of the
> tibia diaphysis compared with the soccer group."
>
> Excerpt from their table:
> Group 1 Group 2 Group 3
> Total fem