Some new thinking on depression and brain chemistry

Traditional antidepressants, from MAOIs through SSRIs like Prozac, are
applied with the goal of increasing the levels of serotonin in the
brain. The thinking is that serotonin improves mood by regulating
neural function at an electrochemical level. The problem is that mood
and serotonin levels don't always correlate as well as this would
predict. Now there is a new theory as to why Prozac helps people: the
active ingredient, fluoxetine, seems to help damaged or atrophied
brain cells to repair themselves:

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/id.../06/head_fake/

Relevance to this news group is that physical exercise seems to have
similar effects.

--
Jim Janney

Dnia 2008-07-08 Jim Janney napisa³(a):
>
> Traditional antidepressants, from MAOIs through SSRIs like Prozac, are
> applied with the goal of increasing the levels of serotonin in the
> brain. The thinking is that serotonin improves mood by regulating
> neural function at an electrochemical level. The problem is that mood
> and serotonin levels don't always correlate as well as this would
> predict. Now there is a new theory as to why Prozac helps people:

It's a new theory to explain nonexistent effect? Damn, that's
impressive. Another model which needs only observations to become
valid. Wonderful world of semi-science.

> the
> active ingredient, fluoxetine, seems to help damaged or atrophied
> brain cells to repair themselves:
>
> http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/id.../06/head_fake/
>
> Relevance to this news group is that physical exercise seems to have
> similar effects.

Sure. Mental health advise was always very relevant to this news group.
;-)

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dnia 2008-07-08 Jim Janney napisał(a):
>>
>> Traditional antidepressants, from MAOIs through SSRIs like Prozac, are
>> applied with the goal of increasing the levels of serotonin in the
>> brain. The thinking is that serotonin improves mood by regulating
>> neural function at an electrochemical level. The problem is that mood
>> and serotonin levels don't always correlate as well as this would
>> predict. Now there is a new theory as to why Prozac helps people:
>
> It's a new theory to explain nonexistent effect? Damn, that's
> impressive. Another model which needs only observations to become
> valid. Wonderful world of semi-science.

Some people swear by Prozac and the like. The Polish girl at the gym,
for example :-)

P.S. 64-bit Fedora-9, hard drive encrypted with LUKS, is nice. My
wife's notebook with Windows finally broke, so I put Linux on a new
one, booted, NetworkManager showed a list of wireless networks, clcked
on mine, and that's it. It's so intuitive now, she became comfortable
with it in one day without help from me.

Now I don't have to worry about all those NASTY THINGS THAT MIGHT BE
LIVING in it:

"40% of the 800 million computers connected to the Internet are bots
engaged in distributing e-mail spam, stealing sensitive data typed at
banking..."
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/co...-botnets_N.htm

Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> writes:

> Dnia 2008-07-08 Jim Janney napisa³(a):
>>
>> Traditional antidepressants, from MAOIs through SSRIs like Prozac, are
>> applied with the goal of increasing the levels of serotonin in the
>> brain. The thinking is that serotonin improves mood by regulating
>> neural function at an electrochemical level. The problem is that mood
>> and serotonin levels don't always correlate as well as this would
>> predict. Now there is a new theory as to why Prozac helps people:
>
> It's a new theory to explain nonexistent effect? Damn, that's
> impressive. Another model which needs only observations to become
> valid. Wonderful world of semi-science.

Some things work for some people some of the time. Prozac did seem to
be a breakthrough at the time, but the more indiscriminately a drug is
used the less effective it becomes overall. But yeah, current
differences from placebos are unimpressive.

>> the
>> active ingredient, fluoxetine, seems to help damaged or atrophied
>> brain cells to repair themselves:
>>
>> http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/id.../06/head_fake/
>>
>> Relevance to this news group is that physical exercise seems to have
>> similar effects.
>
> Sure. Mental health advise was always very relevant to this news group.
> ;-)

True, that.

--
Jim Janney

Dnia 2008-07-09 Jim Janney napisa³(a):
> Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> Dnia 2008-07-08 Jim Janney napisa³(a):
>>>
>>> Traditional antidepressants, from MAOIs through SSRIs like Prozac, are
>>> applied with the goal of increasing the levels of serotonin in the
>>> brain. The thinking is that serotonin improves mood by regulating
>>> neural function at an electrochemical level. The problem is that mood
>>> and serotonin levels don't always correlate as well as this would
>>> predict. Now there is a new theory as to why Prozac helps people:
>>
>> It's a new theory to explain nonexistent effect? Damn, that's
>> impressive. Another model which needs only observations to become
>> valid. Wonderful world of semi-science.
>
> Some things work for some people some of the time.

Just about anything will work for some people some of the time. How
about farting upwind? Nah, it's hard to sell.

> Prozac did seem to be a breakthrough at the time,

It didn't. It was advertised that way, but it's not the same thing.

> but the more indiscriminately a drug is
> used the less effective it becomes overall. But yeah, current
> differences from placebos are unimpressive.

Old data pulled from FDA show the same lack of effect. Actually that
was the study which convinced me. The study was I think from 2002, but
data were older. The original set which was required to approve
fluoxetine for use in the USA.

Anyway, don't assume that detectable difference from placebo mean
anything. About 80% people guess correctly when they are asked if they
are in a placebo group or on actual antidepressants, so it's much above
average. Some part of observed "effect" must be due to that. People
guess correctly mostly because of side effects.

[...]
--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Dnia 2008-07-09 DZ napisa³(a):
> Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Dnia 2008-07-08 Jim Janney napisa³(a):
>>>
>>> Traditional antidepressants, from MAOIs through SSRIs like Prozac, are
>>> applied with the goal of increasing the levels of serotonin in the
>>> brain. The thinking is that serotonin improves mood by regulating
>>> neural function at an electrochemical level. The problem is that mood
>>> and serotonin levels don't always correlate as well as this would
>>> predict. Now there is a new theory as to why Prozac helps people:
>>
>> It's a new theory to explain nonexistent effect? Damn, that's
>> impressive. Another model which needs only observations to become
>> valid. Wonderful world of semi-science.
>
> Some people swear by Prozac and the like. The Polish girl at the gym,
> for example :-)

I'd stay away from her. Not that this advice would be of any value to
a married man, of course. Purely theoretical consideration. Besides,
one of the huge bunch of well documented side effects of Prozac is
lowered libido...

> P.S. 64-bit Fedora-9, hard drive encrypted with LUKS, is nice. My
> wife's notebook with Windows finally broke, so I put Linux on a new
> one, booted, NetworkManager showed a list of wireless networks, clcked
> on mine, and that's it. It's so intuitive now, she became comfortable
> with it in one day without help from me.

I pulled new Sabayon edition. Didn't try it yet, but the old one was
working fairly well, so I expect this one to work too. It's based on
Gentoo, but it has binaries and all this recent automatic gizmos which
make it easy to use. Worth a try, if somebody is a geek and a bit bored
too.

> Now I don't have to worry about all those NASTY THINGS THAT MIGHT BE
> LIVING in it:
>
> "40% of the 800 million computers connected to the Internet are bots
> engaged in distributing e-mail spam, stealing sensitive data typed at
> banking..."
> http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/co...-botnets_N.htm

Scary thing is, that people consider this thing normal. It isn't. It's
a pathology which our children will not be able to understand.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dnia 2008-07-09 DZ napisał(a):
>> Some people swear by Prozac and the like. The Polish girl at the gym,
>> for example :-)
>
> I'd stay away from her. Not that this advice would be of any value
> to a married man, of course. Purely theoretical consideration.
> Besides, one of the huge bunch of well documented side effects of
> Prozac is lowered libido...

I see the sarcasm, but that is correct - I would not engage in an
extramarital relationship.

>> P.S. 64-bit Fedora-9, hard drive encrypted with LUKS, is nice. My
>> wife's notebook with Windows finally broke, so I put Linux on a new
>> one, booted, NetworkManager showed a list of wireless networks, clcked
>> on mine, and that's it. It's so intuitive now, she became comfortable
>> with it in one day without help from me.
>
> I pulled new Sabayon edition. Didn't try it yet, but the old one was
> working fairly well, so I expect this one to work too. It's based on
> Gentoo, but it has binaries and all this recent automatic gizmos which
> make it easy to use. Worth a try, if somebody is a geek and a bit bored
> too.

We argued about this before, but time passed since, and the latest
Ubuntu and Fedora distributions can be readily used by those
proverbial grandmas. One doesn't need to be a geek anymore. And it
will not windows-rot. Actually, repairing Windows registry or running
"defragmentation" are kind of geeky activities. But Linux just works
out of the box.

>> Now I don't have to worry about all those NASTY THINGS THAT MIGHT BE
>> LIVING in it:
>>
>> "40% of the 800 million computers connected to the Internet are bots
>> engaged in distributing e-mail spam, stealing sensitive data typed at
>> banking..."
>> http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/co...-botnets_N.htm
>
> Scary thing is, that people consider this thing normal. It isn't. It's
> a pathology which our children will not be able to understand.

I have a small Windows partition on my work notebook, and so I always
unplug the ethernet cable, and turn off the wireless switch, whenever
I feel especially courageous and dare to boot it. Unplug, then boot.

Dnia 2008-07-10 DZ napisa³(a):
> Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I pulled new Sabayon edition. Didn't try it yet, but the old one was
>> working fairly well, so I expect this one to work too. It's based on
>> Gentoo, but it has binaries and all this recent automatic gizmos which
>> make it easy to use. Worth a try, if somebody is a geek and a bit bored
>> too.
>
> We argued about this before, but time passed since, and the latest
> Ubuntu and Fedora distributions can be readily used by those
> proverbial grandmas.

Actually, the only Gentoo box which remained here running is used by a
four year old and his mother. Once it's installed and setup, it doesn't
matter what is under the bonnet.

> One doesn't need to be a geek anymore. And it
> will not windows-rot. Actually, repairing Windows registry or running
> "defragmentation" are kind of geeky activities. But Linux just works
> out of the box.

Not, if you have to install it (which I admit, is not always the case any
more).

>> Scary thing is, that people consider this thing normal. It isn't. It's
>> a pathology which our children will not be able to understand.
>
> I have a small Windows partition on my work notebook, and so I always
> unplug the ethernet cable, and turn off the wireless switch, whenever
> I feel especially courageous and dare to boot it. Unplug, then boot.

I have a partition with Windows for games. It uses some really
obnoxious antivirus program, which nonetheless found plenty of viruses
on one partition shared with Linux. They were viruses in a backup of my
brother's Linux laptop. All in .wine directory. ;-)

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 01:26:54 +0000 (UTC), DZ
<32173@1049610171.2796816801.26720.9208.11794> wrote:

>Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Dnia 2008-07-09 DZ napisa?(a):
>>> Some people swear by Prozac and the like. The Polish girl at the gym,
>>> for example :-)
>>
>> I'd stay away from her. Not that this advice would be of any value
>> to a married man, of course. Purely theoretical consideration.
>> Besides, one of the huge bunch of well documented side effects of
>> Prozac is lowered libido...
>
>I see the sarcasm, but that is correct - I would not engage in an
>extramarital relationship.
>
>>> P.S. 64-bit Fedora-9, hard drive encrypted with LUKS, is nice. My
>>> wife's notebook with Windows finally broke, so I put Linux on a new
>>> one, booted, NetworkManager showed a list of wireless networks, clcked
>>> on mine, and that's it. It's so intuitive now, she became comfortable
>>> with it in one day without help from me.
>>
>> I pulled new Sabayon edition. Didn't try it yet, but the old one was
>> working fairly well, so I expect this one to work too. It's based on
>> Gentoo, but it has binaries and all this recent automatic gizmos which
>> make it easy to use. Worth a try, if somebody is a geek and a bit bored
>> too.
>
>We argued about this before, but time passed since, and the latest
>Ubuntu and Fedora distributions can be readily used by those
>proverbial grandmas. One doesn't need to be a geek anymore. And it
>will not windows-rot. Actually, repairing Windows registry or running
>"defragmentation" are kind of geeky activities. But Linux just works
>out of the box.

I have a triple boot between Vista Ultimate, XP Pro and Ubuntu.
Unfortunately, I am unable to get Ubuntu to recognise my sound card,
and all efforts to solve the problem via Linux/Ubuntu help sites are
fruitless as they are in a jargon with which I am not familiar.

As much as I would like to progress with Linux I refuse to proceed
further until I can get past this seemingly basic problem.

Any simple and easily explained 'work-arounds' Dmitri?

Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> writes:

> Dnia 2008-07-09 Jim Janney napisa³(a):
>> Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>>> Dnia 2008-07-08 Jim Janney napisa³(a):
>>>>
>>>> Traditional antidepressants, from MAOIs through SSRIs like Prozac, are
>>>> applied with the goal of increasing the levels of serotonin in the
>>>> brain. The thinking is that serotonin improves mood by regulating
>>>> neural function at an electrochemical level. The problem is that mood
>>>> and serotonin levels don't always correlate as well as this would
>>>> predict. Now there is a new theory as to why Prozac helps people:
>>>
>>> It's a new theory to explain nonexistent effect? Damn, that's
>>> impressive. Another model which needs only observations to become
>>> valid. Wonderful world of semi-science.
>>
>> Some things work for some people some of the time.
>
> Just about anything will work for some people some of the time. How
> about farting upwind? Nah, it's hard to sell.

What's missing is a good predictive model. Something that would let a
physician order a urine sample, or some blood work, or an MRI scan,
and then say "Ah, yes. Farting into the wind. Three times a day."

--
Jim Janney

Dnia 2008-07-10 Jim Janney napisa³(a):
> Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> Dnia 2008-07-09 Jim Janney napisa³(a):
>>> Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> Dnia 2008-07-08 Jim Janney napisa³(a):
>>>>>
>>>>> Traditional antidepressants, from MAOIs through SSRIs like Prozac, are
>>>>> applied with the goal of increasing the levels of serotonin in the
>>>>> brain. The thinking is that serotonin improves mood by regulating
>>>>> neural function at an electrochemical level. The problem is that mood
>>>>> and serotonin levels don't always correlate as well as this would
>>>>> predict. Now there is a new theory as to why Prozac helps people:
>>>>
>>>> It's a new theory to explain nonexistent effect? Damn, that's
>>>> impressive. Another model which needs only observations to become
>>>> valid. Wonderful world of semi-science.
>>>
>>> Some things work for some people some of the time.
>>
>> Just about anything will work for some people some of the time. How
>> about farting upwind? Nah, it's hard to sell.
>
> What's missing is a good predictive model. Something that would let a
> physician order a urine sample, or some blood work, or an MRI scan,
> and then say "Ah, yes. Farting into the wind. Three times a day."

Actually this thing already exists. I'll google it up if you are truly
interested, but there are algorithms of what to do in most typical cases
of mental diseases. Normal block charts, as you'd write for a software
project. I read it in some publication on what is the consensus of
experts in the field. As far as I can tell, people actually use it,
though every shrink has his own bag of beliefs, hopes and prejudices.

Some people feel that this consensus is promoting overmedication of
patients, others feel that it's promoting new and expensive drugs in
favor of old, proved and cheap. No-one can tell who is right or wrong,
because none of this actually works well enough to tell the difference.
I happen to believe that psycho-pharmacology is just a sort of
psychotherapy, with different set of inherent risks and side effects.
Well, at least so called maintenance phase of treatment is of this
nature. Acute treatment often obviously works; but on the other hand,
acute psychotherapeutic treatment also works, and rather well too.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Dnia 2008-07-10 Charles napisa³(a):
> On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 01:26:54 +0000 (UTC), DZ
><32173@1049610171.2796816801.26720.9208.11794> wrote:
>
>>> I pulled new Sabayon edition. Didn't try it yet, but the old one was
>>> working fairly well, so I expect this one to work too. It's based on
>>> Gentoo, but it has binaries and all this recent automatic gizmos which
>>> make it easy to use. Worth a try, if somebody is a geek and a bit bored
>>> too.
>>
>>We argued about this before, but time passed since, and the latest
>>Ubuntu and Fedora distributions can be readily used by those
>>proverbial grandmas. One doesn't need to be a geek anymore. And it
>>will not windows-rot. Actually, repairing Windows registry or running
>>"defragmentation" are kind of geeky activities. But Linux just works
>>out of the box.
>
> I have a triple boot between Vista Ultimate, XP Pro and Ubuntu.
> Unfortunately, I am unable to get Ubuntu to recognise my sound card,
> and all efforts to solve the problem via Linux/Ubuntu help sites are
> fruitless as they are in a jargon with which I am not familiar.
>
> As much as I would like to progress with Linux I refuse to proceed
> further until I can get past this seemingly basic problem.
>
> Any simple and easily explained 'work-arounds' Dmitri?

Sure, but you'd have to cooperate. First provide us with an output of
"sudo lspci | grep -i audio" command, plus "sudo lsmod | grep snd".
It looks way more geekish than it really is, because instead of writing
five pages of where to click in which specific order, we can tell you to
copy&paste some spells into a terminal and copy&paste the output back to
us. It's an actual and real advantage of Linux, when it comes to
providing help for a perplexed user.

But in reality do not bother yet with Linux if it doesn't work for you.
There is no fault in the system itself, but the whole market is still
Windows centered, so using it will often require some geeking around.
You'll easily find plenty of hardware on the market today which lack
full Linux support, though Linux actually is the system with the best
hardware support in history of computing (true thing confirmed with
Microsoft research). Just keep an eye on the thing and try newer
editions. Linux is really growing on the desktop market recently.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dnia 2008-07-10 Charles napisał(a):
>> I have a triple boot between Vista Ultimate, XP Pro and Ubuntu.
>> Unfortunately, I am unable to get Ubuntu to recognise my sound card,
>> and all efforts to solve the problem via Linux/Ubuntu help sites are
>> fruitless as they are in a jargon with which I am not familiar.
>
> Just keep an eye on the thing and try newer editions.

Yes. The way I've chosen a distribution for the new notebook was the
following. I downloaded 3 different ones: I put two on "live DVDs",
and the third one on a flash stick.

This way one doesn't actually need to install anything to try it. Just
boot from a DVD or a USB stick and see which one works better with the
hardware. In my case I wanted to make sure the wireless card (Intel
4965AGN) and the WPA work well.

It's possible that the latest Ubuntu already supports that sound card.
I was really tempted by Ubuntu, but the encryption part looked simpler
in Fedora-9.

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:35:48 +0000 (UTC), DZ
<12634@127017676.195803810.31292.32235.22938> wrote:

>Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Dnia 2008-07-10 Charles napisa?(a):
>>> I have a triple boot between Vista Ultimate, XP Pro and Ubuntu.
>>> Unfortunately, I am unable to get Ubuntu to recognise my sound card,
>>> and all efforts to solve the problem via Linux/Ubuntu help sites are
>>> fruitless as they are in a jargon with which I am not familiar.
>>
>> Just keep an eye on the thing and try newer editions.
>
>Yes. The way I've chosen a distribution for the new notebook was the
>following. I downloaded 3 different ones: I put two on "live DVDs",
>and the third one on a flash stick.
>
>This way one doesn't actually need to install anything to try it. Just
>boot from a DVD or a USB stick and see which one works better with the
>hardware. In my case I wanted to make sure the wireless card (Intel
>4965AGN) and the WPA work well.
>
>It's possible that the latest Ubuntu already supports that sound card.
>I was really tempted by Ubuntu, but the encryption part looked simpler
>in Fedora-9.

I created a bootable Wubi Ubuntu disc from downloaded ISO files and
used it to create my tri-boot with Vista and XP Pro. I have also
installed Ubuntu as a stand-alone programme in Vista. This has largely
overcome the problems with my hardware in the dedicated installation,
and I am able to get the feel of Linux.

It all appears a tad antiquated and makes me appreciate the more, all
the things I can do in Vista Ultimate.

Horses for courses I suppose! ;o)

Dnia 2008-07-10 Charles napisa³(a):
>
> It all appears a tad antiquated and makes me appreciate the more, all
> the things I can do in Vista Ultimate.

In this case I can recommend trying Sabayon LiveDVD with clear
conscience. It comes with Compiz Fusion, with so much bells and whistles,
that Vista is simply no comparison at all. You know, those flying windows,
burning, rotating, accelerating, animating, transluscent eye candy. Works
fine on my computer (several years old, maybe able to run a barebones
Vista, badly...).

> Horses for courses I suppose! ;o)

Antiquated! You are antiquated yourself! ;-)

Beat that! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPrDIKfN7jc

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 22:19:11 +0200, Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Dnia 2008-07-10 Charles napisa?(a):
>>
>> It all appears a tad antiquated and makes me appreciate the more, all
>> the things I can do in Vista Ultimate.
>
>In this case I can recommend trying Sabayon LiveDVD with clear
>conscience. It comes with Compiz Fusion, with so much bells and whistles,
>that Vista is simply no comparison at all. You know, those flying windows,
>burning, rotating, accelerating, animating, transluscent eye candy. Works
>fine on my computer (several years old, maybe able to run a barebones
>Vista, badly...).
>
>> Horses for courses I suppose! ;o)
>
>Antiquated! You are antiquated yourself! ;-)

Perhaps pleasantly and satisfyingly mature would be more apt! ;o)

>
>Beat that! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPrDIKfN7jc

I will certainly download and try Sabayon on your recommendation.

Dnia 2008-07-10 Charles napisa³(a):
> On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 22:19:11 +0200, Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Dnia 2008-07-10 Charles napisa?(a):
>>>
>>> It all appears a tad antiquated and makes me appreciate the more, all
>>> the things I can do in Vista Ultimate.
>>
>>In this case I can recommend trying Sabayon LiveDVD with clear
>>conscience. It comes with Compiz Fusion, with so much bells and whistles,
>>that Vista is simply no comparison at all. You know, those flying windows,
>>burning, rotating, accelerating, animating, transluscent eye candy. Works
>>fine on my computer (several years old, maybe able to run a barebones
>>Vista, badly...).
>>
>>> Horses for courses I suppose! ;o)
>>
>>Antiquated! You are antiquated yourself! ;-)
>
> Perhaps pleasantly and satisfyingly mature would be more apt! ;o)
>
>>
>>Beat that! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPrDIKfN7jc
>
> I will certainly download and try Sabayon on your recommendation.

I'm not saying you should try to actually use it in the long term.
It's the first civilized distro based on Gentoo, but it's still Gentoo
based, so inherently geekish. But Compiz always worked in this kind of
distributions, so if you want bells and whistles, they are there.

LiveDVD seems to be well made, with clear instructions which allow
for "just turn it on and use it" kind of experience, so no harm in
trying it out, but you are not the target user of Sabayon yet. They
aim at people who already used Linux and want something different. If
it works, they probably hope for a mainstream, but it's still several
editions away. Anyway, have a look at what several dedicated people can
do with Linux, even without big companies behind them and megabucks of
investments. It's quite impressive piece of work.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 21:55:56 +0200, Andrzej Rosa wrote:

> Dnia 2008-07-08 Jim Janney napisał(a):
>>
>> ...
>>
>> http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/id...es/2008/07/06/
head_fake/
>>
>> Relevance to this news group is that physical exercise seems to have
>> similar effects.
>
> Sure. Mental health advise was always very relevant to this news group.
> ;-)


Considering people with Body dysmorphic disorders frequently show up at
the gym, and that exercise is becoming a common first treatment for
depression and other mental health problems, Yes, mental health is Very
relevant to this group.

Dnia 2008-07-12 Shava_X napisa³(a):
> On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 21:55:56 +0200, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
>
>> Dnia 2008-07-08 Jim Janney napisa³(a):
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/id...es/2008/07/06/
> head_fake/
>>>
>>> Relevance to this news group is that physical exercise seems to have
>>> similar effects.
>>
>> Sure. Mental health advise was always very relevant to this news group.
>> ;-)
>
>
> Considering people with Body dysmorphic disorders frequently show up at
> the gym, and that exercise is becoming a common first treatment for
> depression and other mental health problems, Yes, mental health is Very
> relevant to this group.

I'm manic-depressive myself (I hope I spelled it right this time).
I train to feel better, I openly write about it for others to know,
that it actually helps.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

In article <5s1nk5-2aj.ln1@bakters.bandit.home>,
Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dnia 2008-07-12 Shava_X napisa³(a):
> > On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 21:55:56 +0200, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> >
> >> Dnia 2008-07-08 Jim Janney napisa³(a):
> >>>
> >>> ...
> >>>
> >>> http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/id...es/2008/07/06/
> > head_fake/
> >>>
> >>> Relevance to this news group is that physical exercise seems to have
> >>> similar effects.
> >>
> >> Sure. Mental health advise was always very relevant to this news group.
> >> ;-)
> >
> >
> > Considering people with Body dysmorphic disorders frequently show up at
> > the gym, and that exercise is becoming a common first treatment for
> > depression and other mental health problems, Yes, mental health is Very
> > relevant to this group.
>
> I'm manic-depressive myself (I hope I spelled it right this time).
> I train to feel better, I openly write about it for others to know,
> that it actually helps.

Weight lifting is great for depression for a number of reasons. :-)
Self-esteem for one and another is that great endorphin release.
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people
until they put their foot down." -- Stephan Rothstein

Dnia 2008-07-12 Omelet napisa³(a):
> In article <5s1nk5-2aj.ln1@bakters.bandit.home>,
> Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Dnia 2008-07-12 Shava_X napisa³(a):
>> > On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 21:55:56 +0200, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
>> >
>> >> Dnia 2008-07-08 Jim Janney napisa³(a):
>> >>>
>> >>> ...
>> >>>
>> >>> http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/id...es/2008/07/06/
>> > head_fake/
>> >>>
>> >>> Relevance to this news group is that physical exercise seems to have
>> >>> similar effects.
>> >>
>> >> Sure. Mental health advise was always very relevant to this news group.
>> >> ;-)
>> >
>> >
>> > Considering people with Body dysmorphic disorders frequently show up at
>> > the gym, and that exercise is becoming a common first treatment for
>> > depression and other mental health problems, Yes, mental health is Very
>> > relevant to this group.
>>
>> I'm manic-depressive myself (I hope I spelled it right this time).
>> I train to feel better, I openly write about it for others to know,
>> that it actually helps.
>
> Weight lifting is great for depression for a number of reasons. :-)
> Self-esteem for one and another is that great endorphin release.

That's what I thought when I started, but I seriously doubt that the
real mechanisms in which it helps has much to do with the
aforementioned. For starters, when you are depressed you *will* find
reasons to feel bad about yourself, no matter if you look good or bad.
That's the nature of the game. Endorphin rush lasts for maybe hours,
which helps, and there were many days I spent in gloom, just to feel
relieved after I dragged my ass out to train. So it's real, but it
doesn't last. I happen to believe that endorphin release is the main
mechanisms we get addicted to training, which helps in keeping on, but
it's not the thing. Nowadays I rather tend to think, that building your
stress tolerance is what helps most. For that to help, we need to train
pretty hard, but not too hard. Very consistent too. You slowly build
your ability to tolerate a controllable stressor, which is training load,
and in case of a low tide coming, you have your batteries charged, so to
speak. All it takes is to ease up a bit, and your body will drag you
out of the hole, because you trained it to do so.

I may be wrong, though. Anyway, it helps for real.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

In article <f55nk5-7hk.ln1@bakters.bandit.home>,
Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dnia 2008-07-12 Omelet napisa³(a):
> > In article <5s1nk5-2aj.ln1@bakters.bandit.home>,
> > Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Dnia 2008-07-12 Shava_X napisa³(a):
> >> > On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 21:55:56 +0200, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Dnia 2008-07-08 Jim Janney napisa³(a):
> >> >>>
> >> >>> ...
> >> >>>
> >> >>> http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/id...es/2008/07/06/
> >> > head_fake/
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Relevance to this news group is that physical exercise seems to have
> >> >>> similar effects.
> >> >>
> >> >> Sure. Mental health advise was always very relevant to this news group.
> >> >> ;-)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Considering people with Body dysmorphic disorders frequently show up at
> >> > the gym, and that exercise is becoming a common first treatment for
> >> > depression and other mental health problems, Yes, mental health is Very
> >> > relevant to this group.
> >>
> >> I'm manic-depressive myself (I hope I spelled it right this time).
> >> I train to feel better, I openly write about it for others to know,
> >> that it actually helps.
> >
> > Weight lifting is great for depression for a number of reasons. :-)
> > Self-esteem for one and another is that great endorphin release.
>
> That's what I thought when I started, but I seriously doubt that the
> real mechanisms in which it helps has much to do with the
> aforementioned. For starters, when you are depressed you *will* find
> reasons to feel bad about yourself, no matter if you look good or bad.
> That's the nature of the game. Endorphin rush lasts for maybe hours,
> which helps, and there were many days I spent in gloom, just to feel
> relieved after I dragged my ass out to train. So it's real, but it
> doesn't last. I happen to believe that endorphin release is the main
> mechanisms we get addicted to training, which helps in keeping on, but
> it's not the thing. Nowadays I rather tend to think, that building your
> stress tolerance is what helps most. For that to help, we need to train
> pretty hard, but not too hard. Very consistent too. You slowly build
> your ability to tolerate a controllable stressor, which is training load,
> and in case of a low tide coming, you have your batteries charged, so to
> speak. All it takes is to ease up a bit, and your body will drag you
> out of the hole, because you trained it to do so.
>
> I may be wrong, though. Anyway, it helps for real.

That's an interesting take on things and probably has merit.
I do note tho' that I get a lot more of a mental benefit from lifting
very heavy. It's why I don't really want to give it up.
(lifting heavy that is. <g>)
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people
until they put their foot down." -- Stephan Rothstein

Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> writes:

> Dnia 2008-07-12 Omelet napisa³(a):
>> In article <5s1nk5-2aj.ln1@bakters.bandit.home>,
>> Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dnia 2008-07-12 Shava_X napisa³(a):
>>> > On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 21:55:56 +0200, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Dnia 2008-07-08 Jim Janney napisa³(a):
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ...
>>> >>>
>>> >>> http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/id...es/2008/07/06/
>>> > head_fake/
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Relevance to this news group is that physical exercise seems to have
>>> >>> similar effects.
>>> >>
>>> >> Sure. Mental health advise was always very relevant to this news group.
>>> >> ;-)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Considering people with Body dysmorphic disorders frequently show up at
>>> > the gym, and that exercise is becoming a common first treatment for
>>> > depression and other mental health problems, Yes, mental health is Very
>>> > relevant to this group.
>>>
>>> I'm manic-depressive myself (I hope I spelled it right this time).
>>> I train to feel better, I openly write about it for others to know,
>>> that it actually helps.
>>
>> Weight lifting is great for depression for a number of reasons. :-)
>> Self-esteem for one and another is that great endorphin release.
>
> That's what I thought when I started, but I seriously doubt that the
> real mechanisms in which it helps has much to do with the
> aforementioned. For starters, when you are depressed you *will* find
> reasons to feel bad about yourself, no matter if you look good or bad.
> That's the nature of the game. Endorphin rush lasts for maybe hours,
> which helps, and there were many days I spent in gloom, just to feel
> relieved after I dragged my ass out to train. So it's real, but it
> doesn't last. I happen to believe that endorphin release is the main
> mechanisms we get addicted to training, which helps in keeping on, but
> it's not the thing. Nowadays I rather tend to think, that building your
> stress tolerance is what helps most. For that to help, we need to train
> pretty hard, but not too hard. Very consistent too. You slowly build
> your ability to tolerate a controllable stressor, which is training load,
> and in case of a low tide coming, you have your batteries charged, so to
> speak. All it takes is to ease up a bit, and your body will drag you
> out of the hole, because you trained it to do so.
>
> I may be wrong, though. Anyway, it helps for real.

"Mental toughness" is a phrase that pops up on a lot of fitness sites.
As far as I can tell, it refers to learning to make yourself do
something even when you really don't want to. Going for that last set
or rep can be a good way to develop that.

--
Jim Janney

Dnia 2008-07-12 Jim Janney napisa³(a):
> Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> Dnia 2008-07-12 Omelet napisa³(a):
>>> In article <5s1nk5-2aj.ln1@bakters.bandit.home>,
>>> Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dnia 2008-07-12 Shava_X napisa³(a):
>>>> > On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 21:55:56 +0200, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Dnia 2008-07-08 Jim Janney napisa³(a):
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ...
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/id...es/2008/07/06/
>>>> > head_fake/
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Relevance to this news group is that physical exercise seems to have
>>>> >>> similar effects.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Sure. Mental health advise was always very relevant to this news group.
>>>> >> ;-)
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Considering people with Body dysmorphic disorders frequently show up at
>>>> > the gym, and that exercise is becoming a common first treatment for
>>>> > depression and other mental health problems, Yes, mental health is Very
>>>> > relevant to this group.
>>>>
>>>> I'm manic-depressive myself (I hope I spelled it right this time).
>>>> I train to feel better, I openly write about it for others to know,
>>>> that it actually helps.
>>>
>>> Weight lifting is great for depression for a number of reasons. :-)
>>> Self-esteem for one and another is that great endorphin release.
>>
>> That's what I thought when I started, but I seriously doubt that the
>> real mechanisms in which it helps has much to do with the
>> aforementioned. For starters, when you are depressed you *will* find
>> reasons to feel bad about yourself, no matter if you look good or bad.
>> That's the nature of the game. Endorphin rush lasts for maybe hours,
>> which helps, and there were many days I spent in gloom, just to feel
>> relieved after I dragged my ass out to train. So it's real, but it
>> doesn't last. I happen to believe that endorphin release is the main
>> mechanisms we get addicted to training, which helps in keeping on, but
>> it's not the thing. Nowadays I rather tend to think, that building your
>> stress tolerance is what helps most. For that to help, we need to train
>> pretty hard, but not too hard. Very consistent too. You slowly build
>> your ability to tolerate a controllable stressor, which is training load,
>> and in case of a low tide coming, you have your batteries charged, so to
>> speak. All it takes is to ease up a bit, and your body will drag you
>> out of the hole, because you trained it to do so.
>>
>> I may be wrong, though. Anyway, it helps for real.
>
> "Mental toughness" is a phrase that pops up on a lot of fitness sites.
> As far as I can tell, it refers to learning to make yourself do
> something even when you really don't want to. Going for that last set
> or rep can be a good way to develop that.

But you can't develop it. At least not very much. It's hard to
explain, but tough people are those who can smile despite circumstances.
I really don't know how to describe it. For example, recently I was
tough. Mentally tough. I worked my hands raw from pulling ropes on a
sailing boat, I slept little, I had a hangover and I was also had a
flue (serious one). All that, and I still could smile, have fun, work
(albeit slowly). I was tough. Last rep had nothing to do with it. You
can't fake a smile. It's not about how much you can make yourself do, but
more about how much you can take and still honestly smile.

Training helps with it, but I believe rather in a manner I described
above that how you seem to understand it. If your body is wasted, if
you don't sleep, if you are hungry and tired, but still having fun, you
are tough. Being able to force yourself to do things is not what all of
that is about. Tough people don't need to force themselves. They just
do.

But if you train regularly, you become tough.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Dnia 2008-07-12 Omelet napisa³(a):
> In article <f55nk5-7hk.ln1@bakters.bandit.home>,
> Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> That's what I thought when I started, but I seriously doubt that the
>> real mechanisms in which it helps has much to do with the
>> aforementioned. For starters, when you are depressed you *will* find
>> reasons to feel bad about yourself, no matter if you look good or bad.
>> That's the nature of the game. Endorphin rush lasts for maybe hours,
>> which helps, and there were many days I spent in gloom, just to feel
>> relieved after I dragged my ass out to train. So it's real, but it
>> doesn't last. I happen to believe that endorphin release is the main
>> mechanisms we get addicted to training, which helps in keeping on, but
>> it's not the thing. Nowadays I rather tend to think, that building your
>> stress tolerance is what helps most. For that to help, we need to train
>> pretty hard, but not too hard. Very consistent too. You slowly build
>> your ability to tolerate a controllable stressor, which is training load,
>> and in case of a low tide coming, you have your batteries charged, so to
>> speak. All it takes is to ease up a bit, and your body will drag you
>> out of the hole, because you trained it to do so.
>>
>> I may be wrong, though. Anyway, it helps for real.
>
> That's an interesting take on things and probably has merit.
> I do note tho' that I get a lot more of a mental benefit from lifting
> very heavy. It's why I don't really want to give it up.
> (lifting heavy that is. <g>)

Try quick lifts. They give you similar benefits without wasting your
body so much. Plus they will make you start caring about mobility too,
which is a bonus.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On Jul 9, 7:44*pm, Andrzej Rosa <bakt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dnia 2008-07-09 DZ napisa³(a):
>
>
>
> > Andrzej Rosa <bakt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Dnia 2008-07-08 Jim Janney napisa³(a):
>
> >>> Traditional antidepressants, from MAOIs through SSRIs like Prozac, are
> >>> applied with the goal of increasing the levels of serotonin in the
> >>> brain. *The thinking is that serotonin improves mood by regulating
> >>> neural function at an electrochemical level. *The problem is that mood
> >>> and serotonin levels don't always correlate as well as this would
> >>> predict. *Now there is a new theory as to why Prozac helps people:
>
> >> It's a new theory to explain nonexistent effect? *Damn, that's
> >> impressive. *Another model which needs only observations to become
> >> valid. *Wonderful world of semi-science.
>
> > Some people swear by Prozac and the like. The Polish girl at the gym,
> > for example :-)
>
> I'd stay away from her. *Not that this advice would be of any value to
> a married man, of course. *Purely theoretical consideration. *Besides,
> one of the huge bunch of well documented side effects of Prozac is
> lowered libido...
>
> > P.S. 64-bit Fedora-9, hard drive encrypted with LUKS, is nice. My
> > wife's notebook with Windows finally broke, so I put Linux on a new
> > one, booted, NetworkManager showed a list of wireless networks, clcked
> > on mine, and that's it. It's so intuitive now, she became comfortable
> > with it in one day without help from me.
>
> I pulled new Sabayon edition. *Didn't try it yet, but the old one was
> working fairly well, so I expect this one to work too. *It's based on
> Gentoo, but it has binaries and all this recent automatic gizmos which
> make it easy to use. *Worth a try, if somebody is a geek and a bit bored
> too.
>
> > Now I don't have to worry about all those NASTY THINGS THAT MIGHT BE
> > LIVING in it:
>
> > "40% of the 800 million computers connected to the Internet are bots
> > engaged in distributing e-mail spam, stealing sensitive data typed at
> > banking..."
> >http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/co...-03-16-compute...
>
> Scary thing is, that people consider this thing normal. *It isn't. *It's
> a pathology which our children will not be able to understand.
>
> --
> Andrzej Rosa 1127R

It's not the libido that's affected its the anorgasmia that's the
killer. If you weren't already depressed the inability to orgasm will
most certainly put you there.

Dnia 2008-07-12 The.Sargon@gmail.com napisa³(a):
> On Jul 9, 7:44*pm, Andrzej Rosa <bakt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Dnia 2008-07-09 DZ napisa³(a):
>>
>>
>>
>> > Andrzej Rosa <bakt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> Dnia 2008-07-08 Jim Janney napisa³(a):
>>
>> >>> Traditional antidepressants, from MAOIs through SSRIs like Prozac, are
>> >>> applied with the goal of increasing the levels of serotonin in the
>> >>> brain. *The thinking is that serotonin improves mood by regulating
>> >>> neural function at an electrochemical level. *The problem is that mood
>> >>> and serotonin levels don't always correlate as well as this would
>> >>> predict. *Now there is a new theory as to why Prozac helps people:
>>
>> >> It's a new theory to explain nonexistent effect? *Damn, that's
>> >> impressive. *Another model which needs only observations to become
>> >> valid. *Wonderful world of semi-science.
>>
>> > Some people swear by Prozac and the like. The Polish girl at the gym,
>> > for example :-)
>>
>> I'd stay away from her. *Not that this advice would be of any value to
>> a married man, of course. *Purely theoretical consideration. *Besides,
>> one of the huge bunch of well documented side effects of Prozac is
>> lowered libido...
>>
>> > P.S. 64-bit Fedora-9, hard drive encrypted with LUKS, is nice. My
>> > wife's notebook with Windows finally broke, so I put Linux on a new
>> > one, booted, NetworkManager showed a list of wireless networks, clcked
>> > on mine, and that's it. It's so intuitive now, she became comfortable
>> > with it in one day without help from me.
>>
>> I pulled new Sabayon edition. *Didn't try it yet, but the old one was
>> working fairly well, so I expect this one to work too. *It's based on
>> Gentoo, but it has binaries and all this recent automatic gizmos which
>> make it easy to use. *Worth a try, if somebody is a geek and a bit bored
>> too.
>>
>> > Now I don't have to worry about all those NASTY THINGS THAT MIGHT BE
>> > LIVING in it:
>>
>> > "40% of the 800 million computers connected to the Internet are bots
>> > engaged in distributing e-mail spam, stealing sensitive data typed at
>> > banking..."
>> >http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/co...-03-16-compute...
>>
>> Scary thing is, that people consider this thing normal. *It isn't. *It's
>> a pathology which our children will not be able to understand.
>>
>> --
>> Andrzej Rosa 1127R
>
> It's not the libido that's affected its the anorgasmia that's the
> killer. If you weren't already depressed the inability to orgasm will
> most certai