Squat troubles.

Hello all.

I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the downward
motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch forward
and generally have an unsteady base.

A little backround. As a child I walked on the balls of my feet instead of
heel to toe. This caused may calves to be large and strong. I am able to
do what seems like infinite calf raises with all the weight on a machine.
I believe this calf devolopement without range of motion is the cause of my
lack of flexibility. (though I lack it to some degree nearly everywhere
else also)

Will I be able to ever squat correctly? I am worried this situation is
simmiliar to someone who curls without range of motion that seems to have
trouble straightening their arms. Should I just keep trying to stretch my
calves?

Thanks in advance for any insight you may provide.

brett

In news:Xns98D4D74303923vr4@216.196.97.136,
Brett <brett.dugan@comcast.net> typed:
> Hello all.
>
> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the
> downward motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to
> lurch forward and generally have an unsteady base.
>
> A little backround. As a child I walked on the balls of my feet
> instead of heel to toe. This caused may calves to be large and
> strong. I am able to do what seems like infinite calf raises with
> all the weight on a machine. I believe this calf devolopement without
> range of motion is the cause of my lack of flexibility. (though I
> lack it to some degree nearly everywhere else also)
>
> Will I be able to ever squat correctly? I am worried this situation
> is simmiliar to someone who curls without range of motion that seems
> to have trouble straightening their arms. Should I just keep trying
> to stretch my calves?
>
> Thanks in advance for any insight you may provide.
>
> brett

Take a look at
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...dan+john+squat !

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill

"Brett" <brett.dugan@comcast.net> schreef:

> Will I be able to ever squat correctly? I am worried this situation is
> simmiliar to someone who curls without range of motion that seems to have
> trouble straightening their arms. Should I just keep trying to stretch my
> calves?

Try the leg press for a while. You will use the same set of muscles.

My advice to you is not to increase the weights, but you progress as to
where your feet are placed. Begin with the feet high on the sledge, and
slowly work your way down.

I really am convinced that this will solve your problem.

--
Pete

"Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> schreef:

> Have you tried squatting in a shoe with a heel? Shoes made for Olympic
> lifters might be worth a try for you, or even just a solid work boot. It
> would help to know your athletic goals for yourself overall, and for your
> squatting in particular, e.g., if you're a powerlifter using a wide
> stance, then the raised heel is probably not the best way to go...

If he would have squat like a PLer, his problem shouldnt be a problem.

--
Pete

"Brett" <brett.dugan@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns98D4D74303923vr4@216.196.97.136...
> Hello all.
>
> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the
> downward
> motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch
> forward
> and generally have an unsteady base.
>
> A little backround. As a child I walked on the balls of my feet
> instead of
> heel to toe. This caused may calves to be large and strong. I am
> able to
> do what seems like infinite calf raises with all the weight on a
> machine.
> I believe this calf devolopement without range of motion is the cause
> of my
> lack of flexibility. (though I lack it to some degree nearly
> everywhere
> else also)
>
> Will I be able to ever squat correctly? I am worried this situation
> is
> simmiliar to someone who curls without range of motion that seems to
> have
> trouble straightening their arms. Should I just keep trying to
> stretch my
> calves?
>
> Thanks in advance for any insight you may provide.

Have you tried squatting in a shoe with a heel? Shoes made for Olympic
lifters might be worth a try for you, or even just a solid work boot.
It would help to know your athletic goals for yourself overall, and for
your squatting in particular, e.g., if you're a powerlifter using a wide
stance, then the raised heel is probably not the best way to go, but if
you're squatting relatively narrow stance, they might help.

Of course, continuing to stretch is good. There are many stretching
techniques, so you might want to do some reading on that subject, e.g.,
a web search on "pnf stretching" yielded some interesting hits just now.
I learned most of what I know about stretching from this book if you're
interested: http://www.kbnj.com/ris.htm

Last but not least, getting into the bottom position of squat requires
more than just ankle and calf flexibility; a lot of hip flexibility,
some hamstring flexibility, and a strong, stable back is required. Be
sure you aren't neglecting any of those things either.

Best of luck.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

In news:Xns98D4D74303923vr4@216.196.97.136,
Brett <brett.dugan@comcast.net> typed:
> Hello all.
>
> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the
> downward motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to
> lurch forward and generally have an unsteady base.

Is this with or without a weight on your back? If with, what happens when
you squat without a weight?


[...]


--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill

On 2007-02-12, Brett <brett.dugan@comcast.net> wrote:
> Hello all.
>
> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the downward
> motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch forward
> and generally have an unsteady base.

Your calves shouldn't stretch when you squat. You should feel your hamstrings
stretching, not your calves. If you find this happening, it's probably because
you're not "sitting back" into the movement.

Try squatting in such a way that your knees don't drift forward past your
toes.

It's great that you have huge calves, and it shouldn't affect your squatting.
Some of the best squatters have really big calves.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

"Elflord" <abuse@aol.com> wrote in message
news:slrnet14di.sg2.abuse@panix3.panix.com...
> On 2007-02-12, Brett <brett.dugan@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Hello all.
>>
>> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
>> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the
>> downward
>> motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch
>> forward
>> and generally have an unsteady base.
>
> Your calves shouldn't stretch when you squat. You should feel your
> hamstrings
> stretching, not your calves. If you find this happening, it's probably
> because
> you're not "sitting back" into the movement.
>
> Try squatting in such a way that your knees don't drift forward past
> your
> toes.
>
> It's great that you have huge calves, and it shouldn't affect your
> squatting.
> Some of the best squatters have really big calves.

Rather unlikely that someone with tight calves would have trouble with
their knees coming too far forward.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Dnia 2007-02-12 Elflord napisa³(a):
> On 2007-02-12, Brett <brett.dugan@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Hello all.
>>
>> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
>> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the downward
>> motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch forward
>> and generally have an unsteady base.
>
> Your calves shouldn't stretch when you squat. You should feel your hamstrings
> stretching, not your calves. If you find this happening, it's probably because
> you're not "sitting back" into the movement.

You aren't saying that all Oly lifters don't know how to squat
"correctly", are you?

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Dnia 2007-02-12 Brett napisa³(a):
> Hello all.
>
> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the downward
> motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch forward
> and generally have an unsteady base.
>
> A little backround. As a child I walked on the balls of my feet instead of
> heel to toe. This caused may calves to be large and strong. I am able to
> do what seems like infinite calf raises with all the weight on a machine.
> I believe this calf devolopement without range of motion is the cause of my
> lack of flexibility. (though I lack it to some degree nearly everywhere
> else also)

You need to improve it. Try a calf stretching machine. Some people
call it simply a step. Do work on range of motion during your calf
raises.

> Will I be able to ever squat correctly?

Probably yes, if you'll work on it.

> I am worried this situation is
> simmiliar to someone who curls without range of motion that seems to have
> trouble straightening their arms. Should I just keep trying to stretch my
> calves?

Yes. And groin.

> Thanks in advance for any insight you may provide.

Do what Shute did. He started to do a bodyweight goblet squat. Try
front squats or Zercher squats and see if you can do them properly.
Try powerlifting low bar, wide stance, sit back squats to see if you
can do them properly. You probably can't, but your groin flexibility
will be a limiting factor there. Or simply work on your front squats
in tandem with some sort of deadlifts. Elevate your heels a bit (a
plank should work fine there) if other options fail.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On 2007-02-12, Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dnia 2007-02-12 Elflord napisa³(a):
>> On 2007-02-12, Brett <brett.dugan@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> Hello all.
>>>
>>> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
>>> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the downward
>>> motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch forward
>>> and generally have an unsteady base.
>>
>> Your calves shouldn't stretch when you squat. You should feel your hamstrings
>> stretching, not your calves. If you find this happening, it's probably
>> because you're not "sitting back" into the movement.
>
> You aren't saying that all Oly lifters don't know how to squat
> "correctly", are you?

This muddies the issue a bit because the front squat tends to move weight more
forward, *and* oly lifters often squat from very deep. So correct form calls
for knees going forward a little. Even with these, calf flexibility shouldn't
make it outright impossible unless going *really* deep. If it becomes a problem
the usual solution is to elevate the heels slightly.

But in my opinion, discussing front squat form of olympic lifters is a
distraction. This guy is not an olympic lifter doing front squats, he appears
to be a relative beginner doing back squats. Therefore, I orient my comments to
that which is relevant to beginners doing back squats, even if it is not the
best advice for olympic lifters doing front squats! Besides, other posters have
already done a fine job of giving correct but in my opinion not terribly
relevant advice in this thread.

Everything I've seen of beginners trying to squat tells me that it's simply
much more likely that he is back-squatting with incorrect form (as most
beginners do) than it is that his ankle flexibility is a problem (it seldom
is -- ham and groin flexibility are a bigger problem for inflexible lifters --
groin flexibility is an issue even with front squats as you pointed out)

In particular, I suspect that his knees are shooting way forward and his back
is dead upright (AGAIN, beginners do this all the time)

Cheers,
--
Elflord

On 2007-02-12, Steve Freides <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

> Rather unlikely that someone with tight calves would have trouble with
> their knees coming too far forward.

If calves are a limiting factor, his knees are probably coming forward. Unless
of being borderline crippled, he is physically capable of moving his knees past
his toes.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

"Elflord" <abuse@aol.com> wrote in message
news:slrnet1k01.mu5.abuse@panix3.panix.com...
> On 2007-02-12, Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Dnia 2007-02-12 Elflord napisa³(a):
>>> On 2007-02-12, Brett <brett.dugan@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> Hello all.
>>>>
>>>> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in
>>>> my
>>>> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the
>>>> downward
>>>> motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch
>>>> forward
>>>> and generally have an unsteady base.
>>>
>>> Your calves shouldn't stretch when you squat. You should feel your
>>> hamstrings
>>> stretching, not your calves. If you find this happening, it's
>>> probably
>>> because you're not "sitting back" into the movement.
>>
>> You aren't saying that all Oly lifters don't know how to squat
>> "correctly", are you?
>
> This muddies the issue a bit because the front squat tends to move
> weight more
> forward, *and* oly lifters often squat from very deep. So correct form
> calls
> for knees going forward a little. Even with these, calf flexibility
> shouldn't
> make it outright impossible unless going *really* deep. If it becomes
> a problem
> the usual solution is to elevate the heels slightly.
>
> But in my opinion, discussing front squat form of olympic lifters is a
> distraction. This guy is not an olympic lifter doing front squats, he
> appears
> to be a relative beginner doing back squats. Therefore, I orient my
> comments to
> that which is relevant to beginners doing back squats, even if it is
> not the
> best advice for olympic lifters doing front squats! Besides, other
> posters have
> already done a fine job of giving correct but in my opinion not
> terribly
> relevant advice in this thread.
>
> Everything I've seen of beginners trying to squat tells me that it's
> simply
> much more likely that he is back-squatting with incorrect form (as
> most
> beginners do) than it is that his ankle flexibility is a problem (it
> seldom
> is -- ham and groin flexibility are a bigger problem for inflexible
> lifters --
> groin flexibility is an issue even with front squats as you pointed
> out)
>
> In particular, I suspect that his knees are shooting way forward and
> his back
> is dead upright (AGAIN, beginners do this all the time)

Olympic lifters practice the back squat, bar high, knees coming forward
somewhat over the toes.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

On Feb 12, 6:46 am, "Steve Freides" <s...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
> "Brett" <brett.du...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:Xns98D4D74303923vr4@216.196.97.136...
>
>
>
> > Hello all.
>
> > I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
> > ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the
> > downward
> > motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch
> > forward
> > and generally have an unsteady base.
>
> > A little backround. As a child I walked on the balls of my feet
> > instead of
> > heel to toe. This caused may calves to be large and strong. I am
> > able to
> > do what seems like infinite calf raises with all the weight on a
> > machine.
> > I believe this calf devolopement without range of motion is the cause
> > of my
> > lack of flexibility. (though I lack it to some degree nearly
> > everywhere
> > else also)
>
> > Will I be able to ever squat correctly? I am worried this situation
> > is
> > simmiliar to someone who curls without range of motion that seems to
> > have
> > trouble straightening their arms. Should I just keep trying to
> > stretch my
> > calves?
>
> > Thanks in advance for any insight you may provide.
>
> Have you tried squatting in a shoe with a heel? Shoes made for Olympic
> lifters might be worth a try for you, or even just a solid work boot.
> It would help to know your athletic goals for yourself overall, and for
> your squatting in particular, e.g., if you're a powerlifter using a wide
> stance, then the raised heel is probably not the best way to go, but if
> you're squatting relatively narrow stance, they might help.
>
> Of course, continuing to stretch is good. There are many stretching
> techniques, so you might want to do some reading on that subject, e.g.,
> a web search on "pnf stretching" yielded some interesting hits just now.
> I learned most of what I know about stretching from this book if you're
> interested:http://www.kbnj.com/ris.htm
>
> Last but not least, getting into the bottom position of squat requires
> more than just ankle and calf flexibility; a lot of hip flexibility,
> some hamstring flexibility, and a strong, stable back is required. Be
> sure you aren't neglecting any of those things either.
>
> Best of luck.
>
> -S-http://www.kbnj.com

Back when I was doing squats, flatter shoes helped me, because I found
that running shoes pitched me forward a bit. I was tempted to suggest
to the OP that he could use boards under his heels, but really, the
best idea would seem to be that he work on that calf flexibility.

As to the comment that he should use the leg press because it works
the same muscles anyway, I simply don't agree. You can use it to get
a good calf stretch though, so he could leg press for quads and butt
and do calf stretches on it between sets by scooting his feet down to
the bottom of the foot plate until his heels hang off and letting the
weights stretch his calves, one at a time if necessary. I think the
goal should be to get to squats in the end however.

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:06:17 +0000 (UTC), Andrzej Rosa
<bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:


>Do what Shute did. He started to do a bodyweight goblet squat. Try
>front squats or Zercher squats and see if you can do them properly.
>Try powerlifting low bar, wide stance, sit back squats to see if you
>can do them properly. You probably can't, but your groin flexibility
>will be a limiting factor there. Or simply work on your front squats
>in tandem with some sort of deadlifts. Elevate your heels a bit (a
>plank should work fine there) if other options fail.

I never squatted OLY style and I never elevated my heels via a plank
or sneakers with a heel. I only wore Chuck Ts to the gym.

Although I have read contrasting opinions about heel raising via a
block or something else, most of what I've read advises against this
practice. I am not saying doing this is absolutely wrong because I
doubt there are absolutes with respect to individual needs.

Both you and Steve have suggested that one option for the OP might be
to raise his heels (with Steve saying that raised heels may not be
appropriate if he is lifting PL-ing style with a wide stance.)

The OP wrote:
>"Iseem to lack the flexibility in my ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have
>to stop the downward motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch
>forward and generally have an unsteady base.

Let's assume that this guy with flexibility limitations is not
squatting OLY-style. Wouldn't elevating his heels be an inadvisable
solution to balance/flexibility problems? Wouldn't doing this
increase the forward travel of his knees, increase knee stress, and
put excessive stress on his lower back?

In addition to advising him not to descend past the point where his
back rounds - I don't know how far one is supposed to descend if one's
back rounds during a squat....maybe 2" above that point? - this guy
should, among other things, increase the flexibility of his Achilles
tendons. Shouldn't he work on this and avoid doing weighted squats
until he has developed enough ankle flexibility?

On 2007-02-12, Steve Freides <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>> In particular, I suspect that his knees are shooting way forward and his
>> back is dead upright (AGAIN, beginners do this all the time)
>
> Olympic lifters practice the back squat, bar high, knees coming forward
> somewhat over the toes.

I realise there are different ways to back-squat, but I suspect he's doing a
"bad newbie squat", not an "OL high bar squat".

Until he responds, it's just a theory -- but given what I've seen of newbies
squatting, I believe it's very a plausible one.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

Dnia 2007-02-12 gedaloda@thisguy.com napisa³(a):
> On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:06:17 +0000 (UTC), Andrzej Rosa
><bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Do what Shute did. He started to do a bodyweight goblet squat. Try
>>front squats or Zercher squats and see if you can do them properly.
>>Try powerlifting low bar, wide stance, sit back squats to see if you
>>can do them properly. You probably can't, but your groin flexibility
>>will be a limiting factor there. Or simply work on your front squats
>>in tandem with some sort of deadlifts. Elevate your heels a bit (a
>>plank should work fine there) if other options fail.
>
> I never squatted OLY style and I never elevated my heels via a plank
> or sneakers with a heel. I only wore Chuck Ts to the gym.
>
> Although I have read contrasting opinions about heel raising via a
> block or something else, most of what I've read advises against this
> practice. I am not saying doing this is absolutely wrong because I
> doubt there are absolutes with respect to individual needs.
>
> Both you and Steve have suggested that one option for the OP might be
> to raise his heels (with Steve saying that raised heels may not be
> appropriate if he is lifting PL-ing style with a wide stance.)
>
> The OP wrote:
>>"Iseem to lack the flexibility in my ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have
>>to stop the downward motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch
>>forward and generally have an unsteady base.
>
> Let's assume that this guy with flexibility limitations is not
> squatting OLY-style. Wouldn't elevating his heels be an inadvisable
> solution to balance/flexibility problems?

It may be, because it's a crutch.

> Wouldn't doing this
> increase the forward travel of his knees, increase knee stress, and
> put excessive stress on his lower back?

As far as knees go, it would, to a point. I never had any problems
with knees from squatting, so it's a bit hard for me to wrap my mind
around all the possible issues there, but I think that if the groin and
hip mobility is fine, you'll not damage your knees with squatting.
People who do, often squat horribly (or very heavy, but those guys
don't ask for an advice on mfw). As far as lower back goes, I'm pretty
positive that maintaining an arch is easier with your heels elevated.
With Oly style of squatting there is a danger of too much lordosis, but
probably not with PL style.

> In addition to advising him not to descend past the point where his
> back rounds - I don't know how far one is supposed to descend if one's
> back rounds during a squat....

One is supposed to work on it.

> maybe 2" above that point? - this guy
> should, among other things, increase the flexibility of his Achilles
> tendons. Shouldn't he work on this and avoid doing weighted squats
> until he has developed enough ankle flexibility?

Maybe. I can't say without a video.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Dnia 2007-02-12 Elflord napisa³(a):
> On 2007-02-12, Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Dnia 2007-02-12 Elflord napisa³(a):
>>>
>>> Your calves shouldn't stretch when you squat. You should feel your hamstrings
>>> stretching, not your calves. If you find this happening, it's probably
>>> because you're not "sitting back" into the movement.
>>
>> You aren't saying that all Oly lifters don't know how to squat
>> "correctly", are you?
>
> This muddies the issue a bit because the front squat tends to move weight more
> forward, *and* oly lifters often squat from very deep. So correct form calls
> for knees going forward a little. Even with these, calf flexibility shouldn't
> make it outright impossible unless going *really* deep. If it becomes a problem
> the usual solution is to elevate the heels slightly.

Front squats demand less ankle flexibility than Oly style, high bar
back squats, but some people simply don't have any ankle flexibility.
I know. I've seen it.

> But in my opinion, discussing front squat form of olympic lifters is a
> distraction.

I discussed back squats. Oly lifters back squat by sitting in between
the legs, not by sitting back.

> This guy is not an olympic lifter doing front squats, he appears
> to be a relative beginner doing back squats. Therefore, I orient my comments to
> that which is relevant to beginners doing back squats, even if it is not the
> best advice for olympic lifters doing front squats! Besides, other posters have
> already done a fine job of giving correct but in my opinion not terribly
> relevant advice in this thread.
>
> Everything I've seen of beginners trying to squat tells me that it's simply
> much more likely that he is back-squatting with incorrect form (as most
> beginners do) than it is that his ankle flexibility is a problem (it seldom
> is -- ham and groin flexibility are a bigger problem for inflexible lifters --
> groin flexibility is an issue even with front squats as you pointed out)

You may be right, but OP pointed to his ankles as the problem zone. I tend
to think that he may be actually right.

> In particular, I suspect that his knees are shooting way forward and his back
> is dead upright (AGAIN, beginners do this all the time)

Good. It's the right way of squatting (especially if you are a tall
guy with long legs).

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On 2007-02-12, Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:

> You may be right, but OP pointed to his ankles as the problem zone. I tend
> to think that he may be actually right.

he might be. It's all theory until we hear more from him.

>> In particular, I suspect that his knees are shooting way forward and his back
>> is dead upright (AGAIN, beginners do this all the time)
>
> Good. It's the right way of squatting (especially if you are a tall
> guy with long legs).

I am, and I still don't find my knees shooting way forward (-; But it's
definitely trickier for tall guys to squat. Tall beginners often look really
awkward.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

Dnia 2007-02-12 Elflord napisa³(a):
> On 2007-02-12, Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> You may be right, but OP pointed to his ankles as the problem zone. I tend
>> to think that he may be actually right.
>
> he might be. It's all theory until we hear more from him.
>
>>> In particular, I suspect that his knees are shooting way forward and his back
>>> is dead upright (AGAIN, beginners do this all the time)
>>
>> Good. It's the right way of squatting (especially if you are a tall
>> guy with long legs).
>
> I am, and I still don't find my knees shooting way forward (-;

So you are doing half squats (or we simply mean a bit different things
by "knees shooting way forward). If you do full squats from an
athletic stance (jump up, where you land is your athletic stance) and
have long legs, your knees will go past your toes. If you squat with a
wide stance and have short legs (long torso), your shins will remain
almost vertical throughout a move, especially because you'll do a half
squat this way.

> But it's
> definitely trickier for tall guys to squat. Tall beginners often look really
> awkward.

True. And some people simply can't squat well. They theoretically
could, but in practice it doesn't work for them.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On 2007-02-12, Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:

> So you are doing half squats (or we simply mean a bit different things
> by "knees shooting way forward). If you do full squats from an

I can do slightly below parallel. I do need a reasonably wide stance to avoid
knees going some way past toes though. I prefer this anyway -- my knees seem
to have trouble with narrower stances (e.g. the classic "bodybuilding squat").

I can do full, but then my back starts to round near the bottom, so I prefer
not to (I don't have huge calves, so full for me is some way past parallel)

Cheers,
--
Elflord

"bc_fitness" <bc_fitness_notthis@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1171313278.962712.187860@h3g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
> On Feb 12, 6:46 am, "Steve Freides" <s...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>> "Brett" <brett.du...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:Xns98D4D74303923vr4@216.196.97.136...
>>
>>
>>
>> > Hello all.
>>
>> > I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in
>> > my
>> > ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the
>> > downward
>> > motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch
>> > forward
>> > and generally have an unsteady base.
>>
>> > A little backround. As a child I walked on the balls of my feet
>> > instead of
>> > heel to toe. This caused may calves to be large and strong. I am
>> > able to
>> > do what seems like infinite calf raises with all the weight on a
>> > machine.
>> > I believe this calf devolopement without range of motion is the
>> > cause
>> > of my
>> > lack of flexibility. (though I lack it to some degree nearly
>> > everywhere
>> > else also)
>>
>> > Will I be able to ever squat correctly? I am worried this
>> > situation
>> > is
>> > simmiliar to someone who curls without range of motion that seems
>> > to
>> > have
>> > trouble straightening their arms. Should I just keep trying to
>> > stretch my
>> > calves?
>>
>> > Thanks in advance for any insight you may provide.
>>
>> Have you tried squatting in a shoe with a heel? Shoes made for
>> Olympic
>> lifters might be worth a try for you, or even just a solid work boot.
>> It would help to know your athletic goals for yourself overall, and
>> for
>> your squatting in particular, e.g., if you're a powerlifter using a
>> wide
>> stance, then the raised heel is probably not the best way to go, but
>> if
>> you're squatting relatively narrow stance, they might help.
>>
>> Of course, continuing to stretch is good. There are many stretching
>> techniques, so you might want to do some reading on that subject,
>> e.g.,
>> a web search on "pnf stretching" yielded some interesting hits just
>> now.
>> I learned most of what I know about stretching from this book if
>> you're
>> interested:http://www.kbnj.com/ris.htm
>>
>> Last but not least, getting into the bottom position of squat
>> requires
>> more than just ankle and calf flexibility; a lot of hip flexibility,
>> some hamstring flexibility, and a strong, stable back is required.
>> Be
>> sure you aren't neglecting any of those things either.
>>
>> Best of luck.
>>
>> -S-http://www.kbnj.com
>
> Back when I was doing squats, flatter shoes helped me, because I found
> that running shoes pitched me forward a bit.

Running shoes are _not_ like Olympic shoes - the fact that both have a
raised heel is about the only similarity between the two. The Olympic
shoe has much more in common with a Chuck Taylor than with a running
shoe.

Personally, I don't find squatting in Oly lifting shoes a whole lot
different than squatting in Chuck Taylors. I don't squat wide, and the
whole idea that the raised heel in an Oly shoe somehow stresses the
knees more seems often blown way out of proportion to me. The knee
stress will depend much more on form, build, the weight, and a lot of
other things, and the heel in the shoe matters much less than any of
those things.

> I was tempted to suggest
> to the OP that he could use boards under his heels, but really, the
> best idea would seem to be that he work on that calf flexibility.

Boards under the heels are risky - you can slip, the board can slip,
etc. Anyone interested ought to just spend the $100 and get a pair of
Oly lifting shoes.

> As to the comment that he should use the leg press because it works
> the same muscles anyway, I simply don't agree. You can use it to get
> a good calf stretch though, so he could leg press for quads and butt
> and do calf stretches on it between sets by scooting his feet down to
> the bottom of the foot plate until his heels hang off and letting the
> weights stretch his calves, one at a time if necessary. I think the
> goal should be to get to squats in the end however.

The leg press simply is the wrong choice for most things for most people
most of the time.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

On Feb 12, 6:57 pm, "Steve Freides" <s...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
> "bc_fitness" <bc_fitness_nott...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1171313278.962712.187860@h3g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Feb 12, 6:46 am, "Steve Freides" <s...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
> >> "Brett" <brett.du...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> >>news:Xns98D4D74303923vr4@216.196.97.136...
>
> >> > Hello all.
>
> >> > I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in
> >> > my
> >> > ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the
> >> > downward
> >> > motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch
> >> > forward
> >> > and generally have an unsteady base.
>
> >> > A little backround. As a child I walked on the balls of my feet
> >> > instead of
> >> > heel to toe. This caused may calves to be large and strong. I am
> >> > able to
> >> > do what seems like infinite calf raises with all the weight on a
> >> > machine.
> >> > I believe this calf devolopement without range of motion is the
> >> > cause
> >> > of my
> >> > lack of flexibility. (though I lack it to some degree nearly
> >> > everywhere
> >> > else also)
>
> >> > Will I be able to ever squat correctly? I am worried this
> >> > situation
> >> > is
> >> > simmiliar to someone who curls without range of motion that seems
> >> > to
> >> > have
> >> > trouble straightening their arms. Should I just keep trying to
> >> > stretch my
> >> > calves?
>
> >> > Thanks in advance for any insight you may provide.
>
> >> Have you tried squatting in a shoe with a heel? Shoes made for
> >> Olympic
> >> lifters might be worth a try for you, or even just a solid work boot.
> >> It would help to know your athletic goals for yourself overall, and
> >> for
> >> your squatting in particular, e.g., if you're a powerlifter using a
> >> wide
> >> stance, then the raised heel is probably not the best way to go, but
> >> if
> >> you're squatting relatively narrow stance, they might help.
>
> >> Of course, continuing to stretch is good. There are many stretching
> >> techniques, so you might want to do some reading on that subject,
> >> e.g.,
> >> a web search on "pnf stretching" yielded some interesting hits just
> >> now.
> >> I learned most of what I know about stretching from this book if
> >> you're
> >> interested:http://www.kbnj.com/ris.htm
>
> >> Last but not least, getting into the bottom position of squat
> >> requires
> >> more than just ankle and calf flexibility; a lot of hip flexibility,
> >> some hamstring flexibility, and a strong, stable back is required.
> >> Be
> >> sure you aren't neglecting any of those things either.
>
> >> Best of luck.
>
> >> -S-http://www.kbnj.com
>
> > Back when I was doing squats, flatter shoes helped me, because I found
> > that running shoes pitched me forward a bit.
>

Yup. I wasn't implying that running shoes are like lifting shoes. I
was saying they pitched me forward uncomfortably.

> Running shoes are _not_ like Olympic shoes - the fact that both have a
> raised heel is about the only similarity between the two. The Olympic
> shoe has much more in common with a Chuck Taylor than with a running
> shoe.

Me too. Chuck Taylors have good karma too.

>
> Personally, I don't find squatting in Oly lifting shoes a whole lot
> different than squatting in Chuck Taylors. I don't squat wide, and the
> whole idea that the raised heel in an Oly shoe somehow stresses the
> knees more seems often blown way out of proportion to me. The knee
> stress will depend much more on form, build, the weight, and a lot of
> other things, and the heel in the shoe matters much less than any of
> those things.
>
> > I was tempted to suggest
> > to the OP that he could use boards under his heels, but really, the
> > best idea would seem to be that he work on that calf flexibility.
>
> Boards under the heels are risky - you can slip, the board can slip,
> etc. Anyone interested ought to just spend the $100 and get a pair of
> Oly lifting shoes.

Yes. Something I should have mentioned. Boards are not a good
answer. I was thinking of it as an attempt to squat with his tight
calves until such time as he could stretch them out enough to squat w/
o the boards.

>
> > As to the comment that he should use the leg press because it works
> > the same muscles anyway, I simply don't agree. You can use it to get
> > a good calf stretch though, so he could leg press for quads and butt
> > and do calf stretches on it between sets by scooting his feet down to
> > the bottom of the foot plate until his heels hang off and letting the
> > weights stretch his calves, one at a time if necessary. I think the
> > goal should be to get to squats in the end however.
>
> The leg press simply is the wrong choice for most things for most people
> most of the time.

Just say no to leg press, leg extensions, and Smith machines.

On Feb 11, 10:09 pm, Brett <brett.du...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Hello all.
>
> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the downward
> motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch forward
> and generally have an unsteady base.
>
> A little backround. As a child I walked on the balls of my feet instead of
> heel to toe. This caused may calves to be large and strong. I am able to
> do what seems like infinite calf raises with all the weight on a machine.
> I believe this calf devolopement without range of motion is the cause of my
> lack of flexibility. (though I lack it to some degree nearly everywhere
> else also)
>

No, calf development shouldn't affect ankle flexibility.

> Will I be able to ever squat correctly? I am worried this situation is
> simmiliar to someone who curls without range of motion that seems to have
> trouble straightening their arms. Should I just keep trying to stretch my
> calves?
>

Which is it? Calves or ankles? Or is it actually your Achilles tendon
that's the problem? In any case, squat stretches might help. Do a
squat without any weight, not even the bar. Hang onto something if you
need to in order to keep your balance. Go as low as you can, and stay
there for at least 30 seconds. Repeat. Often.

Brett wrote:

> Hello all.
>
> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the downward
> motion or roll onto the balls of my feet.
[...]

Plank, board, work boots, Olympic plates under your heels, etc. If
you're rolling forward onto the balls of your feet then, yes, raising
your heels wouldn't be a bad thing. Otoh, flexibility work
encompassing your legs to hips wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Best of luck.

--
Curt

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:57:52 -0500, "Steve Freides"
<steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

>"bc_fitness" <bc_fitness_notthis@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:1171313278.962712.187860@h3g2000cwc.googlegr oups.com...
>> On Feb 12, 6:46 am, "Steve Freides" <s...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>>> "Brett" <brett.du...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:Xns98D4D74303923vr4@216.196.97.136...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Hello all.
>>>
>>> > I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in
>>> > my
>>> > ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the
>>> > downward
>>> > motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch
>>> > forward
>>> > and generally have an unsteady base.
>>>
>>> > A little backround. As a child I walked on the balls of my feet
>>> > instead of
>>> > heel to toe. This caused may calves to be large and strong. I am
>>> > able to
>>> > do what seems like infinite calf raises with all the weight on a
>>> > machine.
>>> > I believe this calf devolopement without range of motion is the
>>> > cause
>>> > of my
>>> > lack of flexibility. (though I lack it to some degree nearly
>>> > everywhere
>>> > else also)
>>>
>>> > Will I be able to ever squat correctly? I am worried this
>>> > situation
>>> > is
>>> > simmiliar to someone who curls without range of motion that seems
>>> > to
>>> > have
>>> > trouble straightening their arms. Should I just keep trying to
>>> > stretch my
>>> > calves?
>>>
>>> > Thanks in advance for any insight you may provide.
>>>
>>> Have you tried squatting in a shoe with a heel? Shoes made for
>>> Olympic
>>> lifters might be worth a try for you, or even just a solid work boot.
>>> It would help to know your athletic goals for yourself overall, and
>>> for
>>> your squatting in particular, e.g., if you're a powerlifter using a
>>> wide
>>> stance, then the raised heel is probably not the best way to go, but
>>> if
>>> you're squatting relatively narrow stance, they might help.
>>>
>>> Of course, continuing to stretch is good. There are many stretching
>>> techniques, so you might want to do some reading on that subject,
>>> e.g.,
>>> a web search on "pnf stretching" yielded some interesting hits just
>>> now.
>>> I learned most of what I know about stretching from this book if
>>> you're
>>> interested:http://www.kbnj.com/ris.htm
>>>
>>> Last but not least, getting into the bottom position of squat
>>> requires
>>> more than just ankle and calf flexibility; a lot of hip flexibility,
>>> some hamstring flexibility, and a strong, stable back is required.
>>> Be
>>> sure you aren't neglecting any of those things either.
>>>
>>> Best of luck.
>>>
>>> -S-http://www.kbnj.com
>>
>> Back when I was doing squats, flatter shoes helped me, because I found
>> that running shoes pitched me forward a bit.
>
>Running shoes are _not_ like Olympic shoes - the fact that both have a
>raised heel is about the only similarity between the two. The Olympic
>shoe has much more in common with a Chuck Taylor than with a running
>shoe.

I Don't know what OLY shoes look like, but I saw what PLers wore at a
meet at my local gym. Their shoes had non-giving soles. Chuck Ts
have flat solid soles. I'll guess that OLY shoes have elevated heels
and non-giving soles
>
>Personally, I don't find squatting in Oly lifting shoes a whole lot
>different than squatting in Chuck Taylors. I don't squat wide, and the
>whole idea that the raised heel in an Oly shoe somehow stresses the
>knees more seems often blown way out of proportion to me. The knee
>stress will depend much more on form, build, the weight, and a lot of
>other things, and the heel in the shoe matters much less than any of
>those things.

When rear squatting, I used to keep my feet slightly wider than
shoulder width and with the toes turned out slightly. I never went
ATG due to flexibility limitations but I broke parallel. I was told -
and I later read- that blocks placed under the heels might prevent
people with rigid ankles or long femurs from tilting the torso
excessively. The block under the heels approach supposedly emphasizes
the quads. Tsatsouline has written that "Supersquatters who rely on
their hamstrings and glutes more than their quads prefer Chuck
Taylor's old-fashioned basketball shoes." (Beyond Bodybuilding)

In _The Insider's Tell-All Handbook on Weight Training Technique:
Second Edition_, Stuart McRobert offers this advice:

"Never squat with a board, plate, or block under your heels. Raising
your heels produces a more upright torso, but at the price of
increased leg flexion and greatly increased knee stress and wear and
tear.."

In _Brawn: Second Edition_, McRobert writes:

"After you've tried different widths of stances, with your toes
pointed outward (30 degrees or so, or more for some people, you may
still have trouble with balance. If you do, resist any temptation to
put a board under your heels. Elevating the heels is a quick fix but
potentially destructive solution to balance/flexibility problems.
elevating the heels while squatting increases the forward travel of
the knees, and greatly increases knee stress. This has damaged many
knees. and it's not just the knees that are put at risk by elevating
the heels - the lower back is too."

In _The New Power Program: Protocols for Maximum Strength_ Dr. Michael
Colgan writes:

"One of the most common errors is to use a block to lift your heels.
This practice causes a dangerous forward lean and increases stress on
the knees. Keep your feet flat on the floor throughout the squat. If
you can't keep your feet flat, don't do squats until you have
developed the ankle flexibility required."

Overall, I don't think that it's good advice to tell a beginning
squatter with flexibility problems and who isn't squatting OLY style
to use OLY shoes - even if nongiving soles are better than spongy
ones. There might be exceptions in the case of people with rigid
ankles, long femurs, and other individual characteristics, but I think
it's better to use Chuck Ts or similar footgear with flat, solid soles
and to try to increase flexibility and use proper form and technique.



>
>> I was tempted to suggest
>> to the OP that he could use boards under his heels, but really, the
>> best idea would seem to be that he work on that calf flexibility.
>
>Boards under the heels are risky - you can slip, the board can slip,
>etc. Anyone interested ought to just spend the $100 and get a pair of
>Oly lifting shoes.
>
>> As to the comment that he should use the leg press because it works
>> the same muscles anyway, I simply don't agree. You can use it to get
>> a good calf stretch though, so he could leg press for quads and butt
>> and do calf stretches on it between sets by scooting his feet down to
>> the bottom of the foot plate until his heels hang off and letting the
>> weights stretch his calves, one at a time if necessary. I think the
>> goal should be to get to squats in the end however.
>
>The leg press simply is the wrong choice for most things for most people
>most of the time.
>
>-S-
>http://www.kbnj.com
>

<gedaloda@thisguy.com> wrote in message
news:1f82t29hivmd59hikkfhk5t2hf25rkp34n@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:57:52 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
>>"bc_fitness" <bc_fitness_notthis@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>news:1171313278.962712.187860@h3g2000cwc.googleg roups.com...
>>> On Feb 12, 6:46 am, "Steve Freides" <s...@fridayscomputer.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> "Brett" <brett.du...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> news:Xns98D4D74303923vr4@216.196.97.136...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Hello all.
>>>>
>>>> > I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility
>>>> > in
>>>> > my
>>>> > ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the
>>>> > downward
>>>> > motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to
>>>> > lurch
>>>> > forward
>>>> > and generally have an unsteady base.
>>>>
>>>> > A little backround. As a child I walked on the balls of my feet
>>>> > instead of
>>>> > heel to toe. This caused may calves to be large and strong. I
>>>> > am
>>>> > able to
>>>> > do what seems like infinite calf raises with all the weight on a
>>>> > machine.
>>>> > I believe this calf devolopement without range of motion is the
>>>> > cause
>>>> > of my
>>>> > lack of flexibility. (though I lack it to some degree nearly
>>>> > everywhere
>>>> > else also)
>>>>
>>>> > Will I be able to ever squat correctly? I am worried this
>>>> > situation
>>>> > is
>>>> > simmiliar to someone who curls without range of motion that seems
>>>> > to
>>>> > have
>>>> > trouble straightening their arms. Should I just keep trying to
>>>> > stretch my
>>>> > calves?
>>>>
>>>> > Thanks in advance for any insight you may provide.
>>>>
>>>> Have you tried squatting in a shoe with a heel? Shoes made for
>>>> Olympic
>>>> lifters might be worth a try for you, or even just a solid work
>>>> boot.
>>>> It would help to know your athletic goals for yourself overall, and
>>>> for
>>>> your squatting in particular, e.g., if you're a powerlifter using a
>>>> wide
>>>> stance, then the raised heel is probably not the best way to go,
>>>> but
>>>> if
>>>> you're squatting relatively narrow stance, they might help.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, continuing to stretch is good. There are many
>>>> stretching
>>>> techniques, so you might want to do some reading on that subject,
>>>> e.g.,
>>>> a web search on "pnf stretching" yielded some interesting hits just
>>>> now.
>>>> I learned most of what I know about stretching from this book if
>>>> you're
>>>> interested: