On starting over, squats and commentary

My background: A computer geek by trade who sits on his ass all day. I'm
currently on Weight Watchers with the wife. My total weight has dropped
from 225 lbs to 185 in the past fourteen weeks. It's been sweet to give
away a forty-inch waist pair of jeans to fit into a 35-inch waist. Pity
it can't add height to my five-foot-seven frame.

Of course, this also means I've lost muscle mass, so it's time to
reverse that. I'm not looking to be a power-lifter or body-builder - I
definitely don't have the freakish genetics for it - but simply want to
put the muscle back in place. If I burn off fat in the process, that's a
bonus.

ANYway. Here's my routine and shitty numbers after two sessions (all
weights in US pounds):

Lift Weight Reps (completed each set)
Front Squat 55 8 & 8
Bench Press 95 6 & 7
Good Mornings 20 8 & 8
Full Squat 115 5 & 6
Dumbbell Row 30 8 & 8

Once I can do two sets of eight, the weight goes up by 5 lbs or 5%,
whichever is greater. I've got 1.25-pound and 3-pound plates too if I
need them for smaller changes.

Squats have -always- been my weakest lift by far and bench press my
strongest. Who knows why, but I can always pound out a decent bench
press (for an untrained lifter) regardless of fitness level.

In past lifting cycles I've noticed my form in the full squat has been
terrible. The front squats are are for me a lot easier to keep good
form, and while I've noticed a negatives on the weight of ass-to-grass
conventional squatting, my form in them is a -hell- of a lot better.

Until I have the back strength I'm shying away from deadlifts. It's been
my experience that as soon as I blow my form I blow out my back - which
leads to time off, which leads to permanent time off.

The other question I have is, are the squats enough leg work on their
own, where they feel to me like they hit two different parts of the legs?

Any suggestions on the lifts themselves - what to add or remove, or even
if the methods are sound - would be greatly appreciated.


--
I have nothing at all against well-trained, knowledgeable Indian
technical support. I hope to speak to one before I retire. --JW, ASR

In article <cvqdnbf80NWLW-bbnZ2dnUVZ_umlnZ2d@comcast.com>,
Steve the Geek <zvqavtugpbzc@pbzpnfg.arg> wrote:

> My background: A computer geek by trade who sits on his ass all day. I'm
> currently on Weight Watchers with the wife. My total weight has dropped
> from 225 lbs to 185 in the past fourteen weeks. It's been sweet to give
> away a forty-inch waist pair of jeans to fit into a 35-inch waist. Pity
> it can't add height to my five-foot-seven frame.
>
> Of course, this also means I've lost muscle mass, so it's time to
> reverse that. I'm not looking to be a power-lifter or body-builder - I
> definitely don't have the freakish genetics for it - but simply want to
> put the muscle back in place. If I burn off fat in the process, that's a
> bonus.
>
> ANYway. Here's my routine and shitty numbers after two sessions (all
> weights in US pounds):
>
> Lift Weight Reps (completed each set)
> Front Squat 55 8 & 8
> Bench Press 95 6 & 7
> Good Mornings 20 8 & 8
> Full Squat 115 5 & 6
> Dumbbell Row 30 8 & 8
>
> Once I can do two sets of eight, the weight goes up by 5 lbs or 5%,
> whichever is greater. I've got 1.25-pound and 3-pound plates too if I
> need them for smaller changes.
>
> Squats have -always- been my weakest lift by far and bench press my
> strongest. Who knows why, but I can always pound out a decent bench
> press (for an untrained lifter) regardless of fitness level.
>
> In past lifting cycles I've noticed my form in the full squat has been
> terrible. The front squats are are for me a lot easier to keep good
> form, and while I've noticed a negatives on the weight of ass-to-grass
> conventional squatting, my form in them is a -hell- of a lot better.
>
> Until I have the back strength I'm shying away from deadlifts. It's been
> my experience that as soon as I blow my form I blow out my back - which
> leads to time off, which leads to permanent time off.
>
> The other question I have is, are the squats enough leg work on their
> own, where they feel to me like they hit two different parts of the legs?
>
> Any suggestions on the lifts themselves - what to add or remove, or even
> if the methods are sound - would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
> --
> I have nothing at all against well-trained, knowledgeable Indian
> technical support. I hope to speak to one before I retire. --JW, ASR

I'd consider dropping the full squat and occasionally replacing the good
morning with a 'romanian' style deadlift. The front squat is good for
quads and you get instant feedback if your form deteriorates - which is
good. Use the same weight in the good morning or RDL that you use in the
front squat for the same rep scheme. It will balance out development by
hitting the posterior chain harder. There isn't really a need to max
with every exercise. Let the front squat drive the other and you'll be
able to protect your back.

Another thing to try is the overhead squat. The idea is to train the
lower back to stay in a flat or neutral position. Overhead squats are
great for working the core muscles.

I'd also switch from a flat bench to an incline bench. The flat bench is
much harder on the shoulder girdle, in particular the rotator cuff
group. The incline is a much better exercise unless you are a
powerlifter or offensive lineman in football.

--
Keith

Steve the Geek wrote:
> My background: A computer geek by trade who sits on his ass all day. I'm
> currently on Weight Watchers with the wife. My total weight has dropped
> from 225 lbs to 185 in the past fourteen weeks. It's been sweet to give
> away a forty-inch waist pair of jeans to fit into a 35-inch waist. Pity
> it can't add height to my five-foot-seven frame.
>
> Of course, this also means I've lost muscle mass, so it's time to
> reverse that. I'm not looking to be a power-lifter or body-builder - I
> definitely don't have the freakish genetics for it - but simply want to
> put the muscle back in place. If I burn off fat in the process, that's a
> bonus.

Are you at your goal weight or bodyfat percentage?

What equipment do you have access to?

Building muscle while dieting is difficult for mere
mortals. It would be better if you were on maintenance
or even willing to add a bit of fat in the name of
better muscle building progress.

If you have time to read them, I can pass along what
I think are some excellent e-books, but I'll need a
real e-mail address. Otherwise you can grab them
via bit torrent. They are: Beyond Brawn and the
companion technique book, and Burn the Fat, Feed the
Muscle.

> ANYway. Here's my routine and shitty numbers after two sessions (all
> weights in US pounds):
>
> Lift Weight Reps (completed each set)
> Front Squat 55 8 & 8
> Bench Press 95 6 & 7
> Good Mornings 20 8 & 8
> Full Squat 115 5 & 6
> Dumbbell Row 30 8 & 8
>
> Once I can do two sets of eight, the weight goes up by 5 lbs or 5%,
> whichever is greater. I've got 1.25-pound and 3-pound plates too if I
> need them for smaller changes.

It's good you have little plates.
Some people progress better using fixed rep targets
and little plates that produce small weight increases
as opposed to working through a rep range. Experiment
with both techniques (fixed reps with the smallest possible
weight increases, and a rep range with larger weight increases)
over time to see if one or the other produces better results.

> Squats have -always- been my weakest lift by far and bench press my
> strongest.

That means you may be better structured for deadlifting
than squatting. Further, you don't need to squat super
low either.

> Who knows why, but I can always pound out a decent bench
> press (for an untrained lifter) regardless of fitness level.

Some of it might be motivation and technique.

> In past lifting cycles I've noticed my form in the full squat has been
> terrible.

That's what I mean. It takes motivation to spend
the time to develop consistent grooves in the three
powerlifts. The bench groove develops first because
the motivation is there (you spend more time on it).

> The front squats are are for me a lot easier to keep good
> form, and while I've noticed a negatives on the weight of ass-to-grass
> conventional squatting, my form in them is a -hell- of a lot better.

You didn't mention your age.

I don't believe that super deep squatting is necessary
or particularly safe in the long term. Try squatting
to where the tops of your thighs are a little less than
parallel to the ground, and deadlifts from just below
the knees. And set the reps per set at 20 with a 3/3
or 4/4 cadence (slow enough to be smooth in both directions).

> Until I have the back strength I'm shying away from deadlifts.

You're doing front squats, back squats, and good mornings.
You don't mention your workout frequency (how many workouts
per week), but as far as I'm concerned you're doing too
many exercises that involve the lower back as it is.
The good mornings are especially troubling. If you were
doing barbell bent rows that would mean even more lower
back stress per week.

> It's been
> my experience that as soon as I blow my form I blow out my back - which
> leads to time off, which leads to permanent time off.

The same thing is even more likely to happen with good mornings
as soon as the weight becomes substantial.

> The other question I have is, are the squats enough leg work on their
> own, where they feel to me like they hit two different parts of the legs?

In general, I like to combine squats with something that
hits the hamstrings more directly and some calf work.
Again, I don't know what equipment you have access to.
With just the basics you can squat for the quads, do
stiff legged deadlifts (especially the lower half of
the movement) for the hams, and one legged calf raises with
a dumbbell for calves.

> Any suggestions on the lifts themselves - what to add or remove, or even
> if the methods are sound - would be greatly appreciated.

Lose the good mornings first of all.
Rework the routine to hit more bodyparts with the
same number of exercises. Put together two or three
routines that alternate through the week. Decide
whether you're going to train 2 or 3 times a week.
I recommend twice a week. The 5 key exercises are
the 3 powerlifts, a lat movement (pulldown, chin or row)
and the overhead press. Make sure all of those are
trained intensively once per week. I like your 2 work
sets per exercise arrangement; however, I'd up the
reps per set on squats, deadlifts and calf work to
20 (15-20 if you prefer a rep range). So, for example,
two 5-exercise routines in one week might look something
like this:
A 10-minute aerobic warmup if you feel you need it.
1. Squat one day and deadlift the next. Deadlifts can
alternate between bent leg and stiff leg.
2. Calf work one day and ab work the next. Ab work can
be moved to the end of the workout if you feel that it
is effecting core strength in other movements.
3. Bench one day and dips the next.
4. Row one day and chin or pulldown the next.
5. Overhead press one day and shrug the next.
Use warm up sets as necessary, rest between sets as necessary
(don't rush), and perform 2-3 work sets per exercise. Apply
enough intensity (effort) and volume (sets) to feel as though
you taxed yourself. Eat something 90 minutes before training
and again as soon as you're through. Go to bed early enough
to where you wake up naturally rather than through the use
of an alarm. Eat as much as you can without gaining fat.
Don't go nuts with the protein, but don't skimp on it either.
Try different meal frequencies to see what works best. For
example, I've tried everything from the warrior-style diet
(one little meal and one big meal per day) to six meals per
day. For me, 2 meals works well when I'm limiting carbs, and
6 meals works best when carbs are up. Drink plenty of water.
If you think it'll help, take a multi-vitamin/multi-mineral
supplement daily. The large tablets usually have a line in
the middle so that you can break the tablet in half. If yours
is like that, break it in half, take half with your first meal
of the day and half with your last meal of the day. And chew
it so there's no chance of it passing through undigested.
Keep a journal (training, nutrition and anything else that might
be useful down the road like hours slept, unusual emotions,
temptations, cravings, waking body temperature, etc.).

That's about it in summary form. There's more detail in the
books I mentioned. What's here is but one interpretation.

Good luck,

Bill Eitner

On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 08:05:33 -0600, Hobbes <khobman800@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Another thing to try is the overhead squat. The idea is to train the
>lower back to stay in a flat or neutral position. Overhead squats are
>great for working the core muscles.

I have been squatting more frequently and I noticed this about myself.
I just suddenly found myself pushing harder with the legs and keeping
the back more straight. I had a tendency to move the back too much
especially when the weight got heavy. I didn't even realize how much
I was moving the back until I did a few without moving it.

>I'd also switch from a flat bench to an incline bench. The flat bench is
>much harder on the shoulder girdle, in particular the rotator cuff
>group. The incline is a much better exercise unless you are a
>powerlifter or offensive lineman in football.

I switched to these a few months back. It too me a little while to
get used to them but now I get a pretty good burn.

On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 08:52:38 -0400, Steve the Geek
<zvqavtugpbzc@pbzpnfg.arg> wrote:

>My background: A computer geek by trade who sits on his ass all day. I'm
>currently on Weight Watchers with the wife. My total weight has dropped
>from 225 lbs to 185 in the past fourteen weeks. It's been sweet to give
>away a forty-inch waist pair of jeans to fit into a 35-inch waist. Pity
>it can't add height to my five-foot-seven frame.
>
>Of course, this also means I've lost muscle mass, so it's time to
>reverse that. I'm not looking to be a power-lifter or body-builder - I
>definitely don't have the freakish genetics for it - but simply want to
>put the muscle back in place. If I burn off fat in the process, that's a
>bonus.
>
>ANYway. Here's my routine and shitty numbers after two sessions (all
>weights in US pounds):
>
> Lift Weight Reps (completed each set)
>Front Squat 55 8 & 8
>Bench Press 95 6 & 7
>Good Mornings 20 8 & 8
>Full Squat 115 5 & 6
>Dumbbell Row 30 8 & 8
>
>Once I can do two sets of eight, the weight goes up by 5 lbs or 5%,
>whichever is greater. I've got 1.25-pound and 3-pound plates too if I
>need them for smaller changes.
>
>Squats have -always- been my weakest lift by far and bench press my
>strongest. Who knows why, but I can always pound out a decent bench
>press (for an untrained lifter) regardless of fitness level.
>
>In past lifting cycles I've noticed my form in the full squat has been
>terrible. The front squats are are for me a lot easier to keep good
>form, and while I've noticed a negatives on the weight of ass-to-grass
>conventional squatting, my form in them is a -hell- of a lot better.
>
>Until I have the back strength I'm shying away from deadlifts. It's been
>my experience that as soon as I blow my form I blow out my back - which
>leads to time off, which leads to permanent time off.
>
>The other question I have is, are the squats enough leg work on their
>own, where they feel to me like they hit two different parts of the legs?
>
>Any suggestions on the lifts themselves - what to add or remove, or even
>if the methods are sound - would be greatly appreciated.

Sounds like you had great success on the weight loss. The only
recommendation I have is to move your weakest stuff to first in the
workout. I am in the same boat as you with a weak squat. I used to
do the extra leg exercises like you are doing but I am not sure they
helped much. Recently I switched to a three day full body workout.
So I am squatting more frequently rather than doing numerous leg
exercises.

> Are you at your goal weight or bodyfat percentage?

Not even close on either. If I go purely by the scale I've got at least
another twenty pounds to go. Calipers for measuring bodyfat are on my
list of things to buy. The scale I definitely care less about than the look.

> What equipment do you have access to?

A sadly a low ceiling which prevents any overhead work. No machines at
all. Flat and adjustable benches, safety cages for squat and bench, six
bars and around 1200lbs of plates.

> Building muscle while dieting is difficult for mere
> mortals. It would be better if you were on maintenance
> or even willing to add a bit of fat in the name of
> better muscle building progress.
> You didn't mention your age.

I've just turned forty. The only other consideration is the addition of
Depakote, which is known to cause weight gain. That's one of the
motivating factors for the lifting as well - If I'm going to gain
weight, it's going to be muscle.

>> Until I have the back strength I'm shying away from deadlifts.
>
> You're doing front squats, back squats, and good mornings.
> You don't mention your workout frequency (how many workouts
> per week), but as far as I'm concerned you're doing too
> many exercises that involve the lower back as it is.
> The good mornings are especially troubling. If you were
> doing barbell bent rows that would mean even more lower
> back stress per week.

I've noticed a lot of strength imbalance between left and right arms,
dumbbell rows it is.

>> The other question I have is, are the squats enough leg work on their
>> own, where they feel to me like they hit two different parts of the legs?
>
> In general, I like to combine squats with something that
> hits the hamstrings more directly and some calf work.
> Again, I don't know what equipment you have access to.
> With just the basics you can squat for the quads, do
> stiff legged deadlifts (especially the lower half of
> the movement) for the hams, and one legged calf raises with
> a dumbbell for calves.

Would something like step-ups be in the same vein as the above? I -can-
get my head between the ceiling joists, just not the whole bar.

>> Any suggestions on the lifts themselves - what to add or remove, or
>> even if the methods are sound - would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Lose the good mornings first of all.
> Rework the routine to hit more bodyparts with the
> same number of exercises. Put together two or three
> routines that alternate through the week. Decide
> whether you're going to train 2 or 3 times a week.
> I recommend twice a week.

Oh, I've definitely not set anything into stone as far as frequency
and/or methods. I know compound movements are the way to go unless
there's something very specific to make up for.

I've -just- started and three times a week isn't enough recovery time at
the moment. Two times of full-body is going to have to do.

> The 5 key exercises are
> the 3 powerlifts, a lat movement (pulldown, chin or row)
> and the overhead press. . .
> 4. Row one day and chin or pulldown the next.

I couldn't do a chin-up or pull-up if you set a blowtorch under me. :-)

> Apply enough intensity (effort) and volume (sets) to feel as though
> you taxed yourself.

That's actually easy - in how I feel headed up the stairs to the shower
from the basement to the second floor.

> Try different meal frequencies to see what works best.

I've found grazing throughout the day works best for me, and damned near
everything I eat provides -some- protein and fiber. I've gotten into the
habit of eating slower and stopping once the "HUNGRY" light goes out.

At work I have 100% control over what's in the fridge and eat better
than at home! Chicken breasts in the freezer, whole-wheat pasta and
basmati rice in the cupboard, and canned veggies and fruits filling the
cabinets. Fresh veggies I buy on Monday and use throughout the week to
the amusement and growling stomachs of my cow-orkers when they see a
salad, a little pasta, steamed mixed veggies, lemon-rosemary chicken and
a fruit salad and espresso on the table for my lunch.

A full working kitchen is =so= nice a perk.

A typical day is:
* Quaker Oatmeal (not the quick kind) & coffee
* Low-fat yogurt
* Two wraps with tuna and lettuce OR pasta and salad OR whatever else
I put together (protein, veggie and grain ALWAYS)
* Low-fat pudding or canned fruit (no sugar or syrup)
* 20-oz mug of water - I refill this six or more times a day, easily

In case you hadn't guessed, I like food. :-)

> Keep a journal (training, nutrition and anything else that might
> be useful down the road like hours slept, unusual emotions,
> temptations, cravings, waking body temperature, etc.).

On Weight Watchers I have to track food anyway. Easily done.

> That's about it in summary form. There's more detail in the
> books I mentioned. What's here is but one interpretation.

Thanks so much!

--
I have nothing at all against well-trained, knowledgeable Indian
technical support. I hope to speak to one before I retire. --JW, ASR