stretching - a waste of time?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/26/he...ce&oref=slogin


Sam

Sam the Bam <samthebam1@lycos.com> wrote in
news:af4d36a7-9a8f-44bc-8dcd-ffd7d4735748@v3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:

> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/26/he...&ref=science&o
> ref=slogin
>
>
> Sam

Stretching is a waste of time re preventing injury and muscle soreness - it
is, on the other hand, the very best way of increasing range of motion.

In short, use stretching for its obvious primary purpose and not in the
hope of achieving some side effect.

Regards,

On Feb 26, 6:52 pm, "nemo_outis" <a...@xyz.com> wrote:
> Sam the Bam <samtheb...@lycos.com> wrote innews:af4d36a7-9a8f-44bc-8dcd-ffd7d4735748@v3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
>
> >http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/26/he...&ref=science&o
> > ref=slogin
>
> > Sam
>
> Stretching is a waste of time re preventing injury and muscle soreness - it
> is, on the other hand, the very best way of increasing range of motion.
>
> In short, use stretching for its obvious primary purpose and not in the
> hope of achieving some side effect.
>
> Regards,

I can't buy into that article entirely. I've been a power lifter off
and on for over 20 years and I still swear by stretching :20 before
and :20 after. I enhance the after by stretching in a sauna or steam
room.with a 2 liter bottle of water

"abettergreenlife@gmail.com" <abettergreenlife@gmail.com> wrote in
news:26ba1062-a88f-437a-a8a2-09b642989bd9@p43g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:


> I can't buy into that article entirely. I've been a power lifter off
> and on for over 20 years and I still swear by stretching :20 before
> and :20 after. I enhance the after by stretching in a sauna or steam
> room.with a 2 liter bottle of water

You stretch regularly and have never had a lifting injury?

You might want to reflect on the immortal words of the African chieftain,
who when asked about one of the practices of his tribe replied, "It has
been repeatedly proved, by hundreds of cases, that the beating of drums
will restore the sun after an eclipse."

Regards,

> Stretching is a waste of time re preventing injury and muscle soreness - it
> is, on the other hand, the very best way of increasing range of motion.
>
> In short, use stretching for its obvious primary purpose and not in the
> hope of achieving some side effect.
>
> Regards,

Partially correct...flexibility will prevent injuries caused due to
lack of flexibility. See this all the time in BJJ due to people
having inadequacy in this area. Bear in mind that these injuries tend
to be muscular, secondarily tendon and ligament in nature, but
stretching is certainly not going to prevent the type of injury shown
in the graphic on the NYT page, that being a knee injury. I have
personally avoided some serious injuries simply by being flexible
enough to twist out of bad situations, the most recent being folded
onto my back by a 220lb blue belt from a standing position where I got
powered into a sitting on heels type of position on my left knee
except with my foot facing outward, kind of the way a heelhook works.
A less flexible person would have been unable to get their body enough
out of the way of being a lever against the joint, whereas I was able
to splitsecond go with the motion, arch and twist slightly enough to
alleviate the stress on the knee. People who saw it expected an
immediate knee injury. Obviously, it wasn't "knee flexibility" that
bailed me out, because there is no such thing, rather it was torso and
spinal flexibility as well as in the quadriceps.

Overall body flexibility is a good thing...maybe not for lifting or
tennis or basketball (although I have flexed my body into a fall to
get stress off of an ankle in progress of getting twisted to a
sprain), but it sure as hell will help you with a grappling sport
where increased range of motion can remove critical leverage from an
otherwise overstressed joint.

Trav

> You might want to reflect on the immortal words of the African chieftain,
> who when asked about one of the practices of his tribe replied, "It has
> been repeatedly proved, by hundreds of cases, that the beating of drums
> will restore the sun after an eclipse."
>
> Regards,

I always knew you to be a closet racist.

Trav

On Feb 26, 10:31*pm, "travis...@aol.cominyrface" <travis...@aol.com>
wrote:
> > You might want to reflect on the immortal words of the African chieftain,
> > who when asked about one of the practices of his tribe replied, "It has
> > been repeatedly proved, by hundreds of cases, that the beating of drums
> > will restore the sun after an eclipse."
>
> > Regards,
>
> I always knew you to be a closet racist.
>
> Trav

who isnt?
As for stretching, i find it doesnt even work to increase motion
unless i stretch enttirely in the way they say dont stretch.Like
really over stretch, bounce up and down, basically obviously ripping
your muscle up so it grows back longer.only when im drinking alot can
i really get limber, by stretching when im buzzed so i go way too
far.of course maybe its just my genetic cesspool that does this to me.
as for injury prevention.
Doesnt eveeryone know that stretching before the activity has been
debunked? before you do a warm up, afterwards you stretch.

"travisgod@aol.cominyrface" <travisgod@aol.com> wrote in
news:1de3e0a2-789d-4e6e-8006-841fab54aebb@u69g2000hse.googlegroups.com:

>> You might want to reflect on the immortal words of the African
>> chieftain, who when asked about one of the practices of his tribe
>> replied, "It has been repeatedly proved, by hundreds of cases, that
>> the beating of drums will restore the sun after an eclipse."
>>
>> Regards,
>
> I always knew you to be a closet racist.
>
> Trav

This particular African chieftain was a white fellow living in Morocco.

Regards,

ABS everybody wants them.* Then why don't people do something about
it? i made a blog that i really hope will help and motivate you to
achieve this goal www.superrippedabs.blogspot.com* The key to getting
abs is through Patience and Persistence. If you put your mind to it
you can achieve anything (i know, its cliche, but very true!)

"nemo_outis" <abc@xyz.com> writes:

> Sam the Bam <samthebam1@lycos.com> wrote in
> news:af4d36a7-9a8f-44bc-8dcd-ffd7d4735748@v3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
>
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/26/he...&ref=science&o
>> ref=slogin
>>
>>
>> Sam
>
> Stretching is a waste of time re preventing injury and muscle soreness - it
> is, on the other hand, the very best way of increasing range of motion.
>
> In short, use stretching for its obvious primary purpose and not in the
> hope of achieving some side effect.

Hmm... doesn't increased range of motion help to prevent injuries when
the joints are forced (by another person) or by yourself (example,
swung without enough control to stop where you desired, etc.)?

On a separate point: I understand stretching to be a method to
organize the body to follow particular movement patterns, and "latch"
the tendons, muscles, and joints into the appropriate connection
lines. In a lot of the exercises I do now, as well as in sparring,
stretches are an integral part of the movement to keep the connections
intact.
--
BOFH excuse #231:

We had to turn off that service to comply with the CDA Bill.

"travisgod@aol.cominyrface" <travisgod@aol.com> writes:

>> Stretching is a waste of time re preventing injury and muscle soreness - it
>> is, on the other hand, the very best way of increasing range of motion.
>>
>> In short, use stretching for its obvious primary purpose and not in the
>> hope of achieving some side effect.
>>
>> Regards,
>
> Partially correct...flexibility will prevent injuries caused due to
> lack of flexibility. See this all the time in BJJ due to people
> having inadequacy in this area. Bear in mind that these injuries tend

OK, answered my previous Q.

> to be muscular, secondarily tendon and ligament in nature, but
> stretching is certainly not going to prevent the type of injury shown
> in the graphic on the NYT page, that being a knee injury. I have
> personally avoided some serious injuries simply by being flexible
> enough to twist out of bad situations, the most recent being folded
> onto my back by a 220lb blue belt from a standing position where I
> got

Ugh! <shudder>

--
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We've picked COBOL as the language of choice.

6packer <mattface22@yahoo.com> writes:

> ABS everybody wants them.Â* Then why don't people do something about
> it? i made a blog that i really hope will help and motivate you to
> achieve this goal www.superrippedabs.blogspot.comÂ* The key to getting
> abs is through Patience and Persistence. If you put your mind to it
> you can achieve anything (i know, its cliche, but very true!)

I don't want abs.
--
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Browser's cookie is corrupted -- someone's been nibbling on it.

SPORTfighter <billamahoney@yahoo.com> writes:

> On Feb 26, 10:31Â*pm, "travis...@aol.cominyrface" <travis...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>> > You might want to reflect on the immortal words of the African chieftain,
>> > who when asked about one of the practices of his tribe replied, "It has
>> > been repeatedly proved, by hundreds of cases, that the beating of drums
>> > will restore the sun after an eclipse."
>>
>> > Regards,
>>
>> I always knew you to be a closet racist.
>>
>> Trav
>
> who isnt?
> As for stretching, i find it doesnt even work to increase motion
> unless i stretch enttirely in the way they say dont stretch.Like
> really over stretch, bounce up and down, basically obviously ripping
> your muscle up so it grows back longer.only when im drinking alot can
> i really get limber, by stretching when im buzzed so i go way too
> far.of course maybe its just my genetic cesspool that does this to me.
> as for injury prevention.
> Doesnt eveeryone know that stretching before the activity has been
> debunked? before you do a warm up, afterwards you stretch.

I think perhaps you are mixing up the combination of relaxation,
coordination and stretching when you make that judgement? For
example, if you either relax or stretch, yet your body's tendons,
muscles and joints are not coordinated into an appropriate chain, then
you will still not be able to get greater range or motion or avoid
pain. On the other hand, using stretching and relaxation to improve
the coordination will help to get greater range of motion when either
relaxing and/or stretching. Does that make sense?

In my experience, both martial arts and dancing, the two components
necessary to get better range of motion (controlled, active, as well
as uncontrolled, passive) are relaxation and proper coordination (not
by willpower alone but from training). And stretching is part of the
toolset to get there.
--
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static from nylon underwear

On 27 feb, 00:38, Sam the Bam <samtheb...@lycos.com> wrote:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/26/he...=1&ref=science...
>
> Sam

I hate stretching. I will avoid if possible, and do it half-assed if I
cannot avoid it.

On Feb 27, 7:38 am, Sam the Bam <samtheb...@lycos.com> wrote:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/26/he...=1&ref=science...
>
> Sam

I know I am entering this thread late but i'd like to say 2 things.

First. While the fact is well known that stretching per se does not
affect injury. What it does prevent re: injury is injury at certain
positions - i.e. if you can do the splits you will not injure yourself
as someone who cannot do it would, should you be forced into the
splits. This is just common sense. Also, the articles referenced by
your link basically just say that stretching does not prevent injury
or delayed onset soreness in the following exercise session and does
not consider the long-term injury prevention or soreness prevention
benefits of stretching when considered as a suplement to range of
motion exercises with a precisely defined range of motion. Which
basically just says that if you want to do the splits, and you train
for it, then you can do the splits without ripping your muscles in two
and ripping your bones out of their sockets like an untrained person
would have to do to get into the splits.

Second. There is much actual scientific data which shows that
stretching has some often surprising side-benefits besides the obvious
prevention of injury issues. For example, here is a report that proves
stretching actually makes your muscles stronger, which validates the
old folk wisdom of adding an inch of stretch being better than adding
100 pounds. http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/reprint/00952.2006v1.pdf

So, taken along with the obvious long-term flexibility benefits of
stretching, i'd say stretching registers as a big win. Score one for
Yoga and Chi Kung!

-

Stretching is exercise and nothing more. It will not prevent muscle soreness
or injury. What prevents that is not over doing exercise. Muscles like to be
stretched and exercised.

>
> I hate stretching. I will avoid if possible, and do it half-assed if I
> cannot avoid it.

Why?

Dnia 2008-02-26 Sam the Bam napisa³(a):
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/26/he...ce&oref=slogin

For what it may be worth - I couldn't do snatches recently (one-armed
version) so I concentrated on overhead squats. My range of motion is
probably better than ever, but I renewed my shoulder injury anyway.

If people who say that restricted range of motion causes injured
shoulders were right, I should be fine. But I'm not.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Dnia 2008-02-27 Gernot Hassenpflug napisa³(a):
> "nemo_outis" <abc@xyz.com> writes:
>
>> Sam the Bam <samthebam1@lycos.com> wrote in
>> news:af4d36a7-9a8f-44bc-8dcd-ffd7d4735748@v3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/26/he...&ref=science&o
>>> ref=slogin
>>>
>>>
>>> Sam
>>
>> Stretching is a waste of time re preventing injury and muscle soreness - it
>> is, on the other hand, the very best way of increasing range of motion.
>>
>> In short, use stretching for its obvious primary purpose and not in the
>> hope of achieving some side effect.
>
> Hmm... doesn't increased range of motion help to prevent injuries when
> the joints are forced (by another person) or by yourself (example,
> swung without enough control to stop where you desired, etc.)?

It's probably hard to tell, but I rather believe that it doesn't and may
even worsen the effects.

For example let's talk about hyperextending your wrists. Let's say,
that one is pressing a heavy weight and it rolls too far, hyperextending
the wrist and causing pain (it happened to me). Let's compare two
people, where one has limited range of motion and can't voluntarily
extend wrists beyond 45 degrees, and another who is able to do 90
degrees extensions. Torque generated by the same weight at 45 degrees
will be much lower than at 90 degrees.

Giving an example when someone is forced to do a split is misleading,
because in most cases there is no external restriction to the movement
(like a floor here) so it will go as far as tendons and muscles allow it
to go. If one isn't flexible, it will happen earlier and less torque
will act on joints causing probably less damage than in case of a
flexible person.

I'm not saying that it always works this way, but often it does, so
stretching may simply not work.

> On a separate point: I understand stretching to be a method to
> organize the body to follow particular movement patterns, and "latch"
> the tendons, muscles, and joints into the appropriate connection
> lines. In a lot of the exercises I do now, as well as in sparring,
> stretches are an integral part of the movement to keep the connections
> intact.

This approach makes more sense. If we do a complex movement often lack
of needed range of motion in one joint is overcompensated by another
joint, which may lead to injury. But even here overcompensation is the
direct cause and lack of range of motion is only indirect. If someone
was equally restricted in all joints there would be no problem.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On 27 feb, 15:12, "Herbert Cannon" <hcanno...@cox.net> wrote:
> > I hate stretching. I will avoid if possible, and do it half-assed if I
> > cannot avoid it.
>
> Why?

Why do some people hate sprouts?

I guess I just don't like it, especially not if it eats into class
time.
I've got limited time, and during classes I want to learn as much as
possible. I'll do conditioning and stretching at another time, when I
do not have access to an instructor/coach and sparring partners.

> who isnt?
> As for stretching, i find it doesnt even work to increase motion
> unless i stretch enttirely in the way they say dont stretch.Like
> really over stretch, bounce up and down, basically obviously ripping
> your muscle up so it grows back longer.only when im drinking alot can
> i really get limber, by stretching when im buzzed so i go way too
> far.of course maybe its just my genetic cesspool that does this to me.
> as for injury prevention.
> Doesnt eveeryone know that stretching before the activity has been
> debunked? before you do a warm up, afterwards you stretch.

Huh?

Listen, man, I stretch before BJJ so that I can roll over backwards
and put my knees on the floor and do inverted guard without getting
hurt. A sport that requires flexibility you SHOULD stretch prior to

Trav

On Feb 27, 8:35 am, "travis...@aol.cominyrface" <travis...@aol.com>
wrote:
> > who isnt?
> > As for stretching, i find it doesnt even work to increase motion
> > unless i stretch enttirely in the way they say dont stretch.Like
> > really over stretch, bounce up and down, basically obviously ripping
> > your muscle up so it grows back longer.only when im drinking alot can
> > i really get limber, by stretching when im buzzed so i go way too
> > far.of course maybe its just my genetic cesspool that does this to me.
> > as for injury prevention.
> > Doesnt eveeryone know that stretching before the activity has been
> > debunked? before you do a warm up, afterwards you stretch.
>
> Huh?
>
> Listen, man, I stretch before BJJ so that I can roll over backwards
> and put my knees on the floor and do inverted guard without getting
> hurt. A sport that requires flexibility you SHOULD stretch prior to

But after you've warmed up.

Pierre

"YumYumPandaburger" <theoriginaldimi@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a1c4e95e-c09e-46b0-bc68-bc8c18e5bfc1@o10g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On 27 feb, 15:12, "Herbert Cannon" <hcanno...@cox.net> wrote:
>> > I hate stretching. I will avoid if possible, and do it half-assed if I
>> > cannot avoid it.
>>
>> Why?
>
> Why do some people hate sprouts?

Broccli.
>
> I guess I just don't like it, especially not if it eats into class
> time.
> I've got limited time, and during classes I want to learn as much as
> possible. I'll do conditioning and stretching at another time, when I
> do not have access to an instructor/coach and sparring partners.

Makes sense. Obviously you are in the wrong newsgroup. Seek help.

"Herbert Cannon" <hcannon18@cox.net> writes:

> Stretching is exercise and nothing more. It will not prevent muscle soreness
> or injury. What prevents that is not over doing exercise. Muscles like to be
> stretched and exercised.

Herb, that is a pretty limited view, considering the complexity of the
human body.

--
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Say what you will about stretching.

I have been in the martial arts since the 1970s, and nothing, I say
again NOTHING, will convince me that stretching is a waste of time.

I suspect the people who believe differently are the wimpy nerd types
who think they can become martial arts masters without working up a
sweat.

BURKE THE BOLD <kenburke0627@aol.com> writes:

> Say what you will about stretching.
>
> I have been in the martial arts since the 1970s, and nothing, I say
> again NOTHING, will convince me that stretching is a waste of time.
>
> I suspect the people who believe differently are the wimpy nerd types
> who think they can become martial arts masters without working up a
> sweat.

I am glad you covered that question. I suspected your mother was
getting lessons in stretching from you, and I could work up quite a
sweat on her last night as a result. Thanks, you're doing a grand job!
Just one tip, shave her ass crack as well....
--
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poor power conditioning

"Gernot Hassenpflug" <gernot@nict.go.jp> wrote in message
news:87y795c2zd.fsf@nict.go.jp...
> "Herbert Cannon" <hcannon18@cox.net> writes:
>
>> Stretching is exercise and nothing more. It will not prevent muscle
>> soreness
>> or injury. What prevents that is not over doing exercise. Muscles like to
>> be
>> stretched and exercised.
>
> Herb, that is a pretty limited view, considering the complexity of the
> human body.
>
> --
Stretching is a pretty limited excercise.

"Herbert Cannon" <hcannon18@cox.net> writes:

> "Gernot Hassenpflug" <gernot@nict.go.jp> wrote in message
> news:87y795c2zd.fsf@nict.go.jp...
>> "Herbert Cannon" <hcannon18@cox.net> writes:
>>
>>> Stretching is exercise and nothing more. It will not prevent muscle
>>> soreness
>>> or injury. What prevents that is not over doing exercise. Muscles like to
>>> be
>>> stretched and exercised.
>>
>> Herb, that is a pretty limited view, considering the complexity of the
>> human body.
>>
>> --
> Stretching is a pretty limited excercise.

Herb, I think mainly your understanding of what you are intending to
do is pretty limited. I agree, if all you are doing is the kind of
stuff you see people doing as a warm-up or cool-down, then yes,
perhaps it is limited. But as part of a reorganization effort for the
whole body, it is not limited at all. Maybe you would not refer to it
as "only stretching" then, but then we get into all kinds of other
stuff that people on this group pooh-pooh.

--
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On Feb 26, 6:52 pm, "nemo_outis" <a...@xyz.com> wrote:
> Sam the Bam <samtheb...@lycos.com> wrote innews:af4d36a7-9a8f-44bc-8dcd-ffd7d4735748@v3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
>
> >http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/26/he...&ref=science&o
> > ref=slogin
>
> > Sam
>
> Stretching is a waste of time re preventing injury and muscle soreness - it
> is, on the other hand, the very best way of increasing range of motion.
>
> In short, use stretching for its obvious primary purpose and not in the
> hope of achieving some side effect.
>
> Regards,

On Feb 26, 6:38 pm, Sam the Bam <samtheb...@lycos.com> wrote:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/26/he...=1&ref=science...
>
> Sam


Obviously, not for the martial arts.

But I like it for running and weight-lifting, just for the feel of
it. It's like when you're too hot, and reach for something icy or at
least chilly, or when cold reach for something warm and toasty.

Running and lifting really "squishes" my muscles, and I like the feel
of stretching because of the contrast in physical
sensations...hopefully it prevents injuries and enhances performance,
but even if it doesn't, it's still fun to do.