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On topic: problem with squats
  1. #1
    Bully Guest

    Default On topic: problem with squats

    One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
    appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
    leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
    thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of what
    he squats.

    Any thoughts?

    --
    Bully
    Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter,
    and those who matter don't mind."
    - Dr. Seuss



  2. #2
    Pete Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    "Bully" <[email protected]> schreef:

    > One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
    > appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
    > leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
    > thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of
    > what he squats.


    > Any thoughts?


    I suspect his legs are long wrt his torso.

    My legs are short wrt my torso, and when i am "in the whole" i do not
    incline that much forward.

    Also, this seem to be a problem with people who are over 6 feet. Shorter
    people usually have torsos just as long as people who are 2-3 inches taller.
    The extra inches are in the legs, which also make distance you have to move
    the weight longer.

    BTW, how does he deadlift? I mean, what seems to be the dominant joint and
    muscles used?

    ----
    Pete



  3. #3
    John Hanson Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:22:35 +0100, "Bully" <[email protected]>
    wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

    >One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
    >appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
    >leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
    >thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of what
    >he squats.
    >
    >Any thoughts?


    Have him do some front squats. That will correct the problem.

  4. #4
    Bully Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    John Hanson wrote:
    > On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:22:35 +0100, "Bully" <[email protected]>
    > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
    >
    >> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his
    >> squats, appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight
    >> further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the
    >> hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back but he
    >> deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
    >>
    >> Any thoughts?

    >
    > Have him do some front squats. That will correct the problem.


    Are you sure?

    --
    Bully
    Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
    matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss



  5. #5
    Hobbes Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    In article <[email protected]>,
    "Bully" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
    > appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
    > leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
    > thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of what
    > he squats.
    >
    > Any thoughts?


    Weak glutes and hamstrings.

    Front squat comes immediately to mind to help with technique. If you
    have access the glute/ham/gastroc bench would be good. If not - manual
    hamstring curls, reverse hyper, etc.

    --
    Keith

  6. #6
    Bully Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    Hobbes wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > "Bully" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his
    >> squats, appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight
    >> further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the
    >> hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back but he
    >> deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
    >>
    >> Any thoughts?

    >


    > Weak glutes and hamstrings.


    Glutes was one area I considered, not so hammies!

    Could the corollary to this be over developed ab/adductors?

    >
    > Front squat comes immediately to mind to help with technique. If you
    > have access the glute/ham/gastroc bench would be good. If not - manual
    > hamstring curls, reverse hyper, etc.


    OK, cheers.

    --
    Bully
    Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
    matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss



  7. #7
    Pete Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    "Hobbes" <[email protected]> schreef:

    >> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
    >> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
    >> leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
    >> thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of
    >> what
    >> he squats.


    >> Any thoughts?


    > Weak glutes and hamstrings.


    If he can pull 140% of what he can squat, i think its safe to assume he has
    strong glutes and hams.

    I am not sure, but i think its a pretty good assumption.

    > Front squat comes immediately to mind to help with technique.


    Seems to me that front squats will stress the quads more then back squats.
    Dont you think good mornings can solve this problem?

    ----
    Pete



  8. #8
    Andrzej Rosa Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    Dnia 2006-10-27 Hobbes napisał(a):
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > "Bully" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
    >> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
    >> leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
    >> thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of what
    >> he squats.
    >>
    >> Any thoughts?

    >
    > Weak glutes and hamstrings.


    So he leans forward to transfer the load to those weak muscles? I
    think that weak quads is the problem.

    > Front squat comes immediately to mind to help with technique.


    And this makes sense. More quad dominant exercise to fix quad weakness.

    [...]
    --
    Andrzej Rosa 1127R

  9. #9
    Hobbes Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    In article <[email protected]>,
    "Bully" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Hobbes wrote:
    > > In article <[email protected]>,
    > > "Bully" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his
    > >> squats, appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight
    > >> further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the
    > >> hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back but he
    > >> deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
    > >>
    > >> Any thoughts?

    > >

    >
    > > Weak glutes and hamstrings.

    >
    > Glutes was one area I considered, not so hammies!
    >
    > Could the corollary to this be over developed ab/adductors?


    I think so. Certainly if the lower back is a strength (ie.
    over-developed) it could happen. Ditto for the adductors (more so than
    the abductors in this case). You tend to use what works!

    Hamstrings are also hip extensors, remember.

    --
    Keith

  10. #10
    Hobbes Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    In article <4541ff87$0$82054$[email protected]>,
    "Pete" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "Hobbes" <[email protected]> schreef:
    >
    > >> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
    > >> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
    > >> leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
    > >> thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of
    > >> what
    > >> he squats.

    >
    > >> Any thoughts?

    >
    > > Weak glutes and hamstrings.

    >
    > If he can pull 140% of what he can squat, i think its safe to assume he has
    > strong glutes and hams.


    Nope. He could be hoisting all lower back. And you don't come out of the
    hole in a deep squat using your quads that much. More glutes and
    hamdstrings. Hip extension. More quads once the joint angle at the knee
    is more favourable.

    Also remember strength is specific to joint angles for partial
    movements. In terms of knee and hip extension the deadlift is a partial
    movement. Not so the deep squat.

    --
    Keith

  11. #11
    Hobbes Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    In article <ehsvo5$gun$[email protected]>,
    Andrzej Rosa <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Dnia 2006-10-27 Hobbes napisał(a):
    > > In article <[email protected]>,
    > > "Bully" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
    > >> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
    > >> leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
    > >> thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of
    > >> what
    > >> he squats.
    > >>
    > >> Any thoughts?

    > >
    > > Weak glutes and hamstrings.

    >
    > So he leans forward to transfer the load to those weak muscles? I
    > think that weak quads is the problem.
    >
    > > Front squat comes immediately to mind to help with technique.

    >
    > And this makes sense. More quad dominant exercise to fix quad weakness.
    >
    > [...]



    I'd disagree with that. Not in the hole in a deep squat. You start with
    hip extension. Glutes and hamstings. He is leaning forward to get the
    lower back more involved, not the glutes and hammies, IMO. I'd have to
    see it, but weak quads are not likely the problem of leaning excessively
    forward coming out of the hole.

    Another thing may be creating intra-abdominal pressure and static
    strength in the abs and lower back. But not likely if he is a strong
    deadlifter. I'm betting he deadlifts with his hips relatively high and
    uses a lot of lower back. So I stick with hams and glutes.

    --
    Keith

  12. #12
    Andrzej Rosa Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    Dnia 2006-10-27 Hobbes napisał(a):
    > In article <ehsvo5$gun$[email protected]>,
    > Andrzej Rosa <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> Dnia 2006-10-27 Hobbes napisał(a):
    >> > In article <[email protected]>,
    >> > "Bully" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
    >> >> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
    >> >> leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
    >> >> thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of
    >> >> what
    >> >> he squats.
    >> >>
    >> >> Any thoughts?
    >> >
    >> > Weak glutes and hamstrings.

    >>
    >> So he leans forward to transfer the load to those weak muscles? I
    >> think that weak quads is the problem.
    >>
    >> > Front squat comes immediately to mind to help with technique.

    >>
    >> And this makes sense. More quad dominant exercise to fix quad weakness.
    >>
    >> [...]

    >
    >
    > I'd disagree with that. Not in the hole in a deep squat. You start with
    > hip extension. Glutes and hamstings. He is leaning forward to get the
    > lower back more involved, not the glutes and hammies, IMO. I'd have to
    > see it, but weak quads are not likely the problem of leaning excessively
    > forward coming out of the hole.
    >
    > Another thing may be creating intra-abdominal pressure and static
    > strength in the abs and lower back. But not likely if he is a strong
    > deadlifter. I'm betting he deadlifts with his hips relatively high and
    > uses a lot of lower back. So I stick with hams and glutes.


    All right. It seems counterintuitive, but if you are saying something
    I listen.

    --
    Andrzej Rosa 1127R

  13. #13
    Edna Pearl Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    "Hobbes" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]..
    > I'd disagree with that. Not in the hole in a deep squat. You start with
    > hip extension. Glutes and hamstings. He is leaning forward to get the
    > lower back more involved, not the glutes and hammies, IMO. I'd have to
    > see it, but weak quads are not likely the problem of leaning excessively
    > forward coming out of the hole.
    >
    > Another thing may be creating intra-abdominal pressure and static
    > strength in the abs and lower back. But not likely if he is a strong
    > deadlifter. I'm betting he deadlifts with his hips relatively high and
    > uses a lot of lower back. So I stick with hams and glutes.


    I think you've nailed an issue I'm having, as I'm trying to get back into
    lifting since a back injury. Thanks. I'm going to focus on my glutes and
    hamstrings to see if I can't sit back on my squats a little better.

    I have short thighs relative to my torso. My deadlifts were really strong
    before I hurt my back, but I've always had to struggle with my squat form
    (tendency to tip forward, like the guy Bully describes) and could never
    advance very far in terms of weight with my squats, and I'm even worse now
    that I'm weak all over. I do notice that my hamstrings are quite weak on my
    hamstring curls, relative to my quads, etc. I'm going to work with some
    forward squats with my BF -- I've never done forward squats.

    Thanks again.

    ep
    (No, I didn't hurt my back lifting. It was a backpacking/mountain-climbing
    injury. I sprained four or five thoracic back ribs on my left side, while
    (and probably because, in part) my right rhomboid was already atrophied
    before that from *another* backpacking injury many years ago.)



  14. #14
    Pete Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    "Hobbes" <[email protected]> schreef:

    >> > Weak glutes and hamstrings.


    >> If he can pull 140% of what he can squat, i think its safe to assume he
    >> has
    >> strong glutes and hams.


    > Nope.


    Okay.

    > He could be hoisting all lower back. And you don't come out of the
    > hole in a deep squat using your quads that much.


    I know.

    > More glutes and hamdstrings. Hip extension.


    I know.

    > More quads once the joint angle at the knee
    > is more favourable.


    > Also remember strength is specific to joint angles for partial
    > movements. In terms of knee and hip extension the deadlift is a partial
    > movement. Not so the deep squat.


    Agreed. Partially.
    It seems that in the dead hip flexion is maximal before you extends.
    Knee flexion is partial, at least compared to a squat.

    ----
    Pete



  15. #15
    Hobbes Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    In article <454224ed$0$93579$[email protected]>,
    "Pete" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "Hobbes" <[email protected]> schreef:
    >
    > >> > Weak glutes and hamstrings.

    >
    > >> If he can pull 140% of what he can squat, i think its safe to assume he
    > >> has
    > >> strong glutes and hams.

    >
    > > Nope.

    >
    > Okay.
    >
    > > He could be hoisting all lower back. And you don't come out of the
    > > hole in a deep squat using your quads that much.

    >
    > I know.
    >
    > > More glutes and hamdstrings. Hip extension.

    >
    > I know.
    >
    > > More quads once the joint angle at the knee
    > > is more favourable.

    >
    > > Also remember strength is specific to joint angles for partial
    > > movements. In terms of knee and hip extension the deadlift is a partial
    > > movement. Not so the deep squat.

    >
    > Agreed. Partially.
    > It seems that in the dead hip flexion is maximal before you extends.
    > Knee flexion is partial, at least compared to a squat.
    >


    I see what you mean. It would be interesting to see video of what is
    happening. The problem is there is a lot of hip extension in most, but
    some people do more of a stiff-legged deadlift type of effort.

    Difficult to analyze verbally.

    --
    Keith

  16. #16
    Shute Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:22:35 +0100, "Bully" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
    >appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
    >leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
    >thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of what
    >he squats.
    >
    >Any thoughts?


    I don't know if it helps at all but I have had this same problem since
    I started squats a few months back. I have weak hams, glutes, and
    lower back. In my case I hadn't done any exercise for many years.
    I suspect a lot of my quad strength was maintained just by walking.
    The squats are perhaps hitting muscles I don't use as often. When I
    look at my body I think my glutes may shrunk the most in size over the
    years. Maybe that is the biggest factor which hadn't considered.

    I have attempted to correct this with deadlifts and good mornings. I
    suspect I just need to keep doing more squats to fix it for good.
    Maybe I will add in leg curls too since I hadn't thought about glutes
    being a potential problem. My leg extension and leg curl weights
    are very close in amounts.

    Watch more closely when he does the lift. I tend to start off
    normally and then lean more in the further down I squat. That is
    where the hams and glutes are playing their part. I don't feel I am
    very good at this even with no weight.


  17. #17
    Lucas Buck Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:47:20 +0200, "Pete" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Bully" <[email protected]> schreef:
    >
    >> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
    >> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
    >> leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
    >> thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of
    >> what he squats.

    >
    >> Any thoughts?

    >
    >I suspect his legs are long wrt his torso.
    >
    >My legs are short wrt my torso, and when i am "in the whole" i do not
    >incline that much forward.
    >
    >Also, this seem to be a problem with people who are over 6 feet. Shorter
    >people usually have torsos just as long as people who are 2-3 inches taller.
    >The extra inches are in the legs, which also make distance you have to move
    >the weight longer.


    So, what is your _solution_? Have his femurs shortened?


  18. #18
    Shute Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:28:39 -0400, Shute <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:22:35 +0100, "Bully" <[email protected]>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
    >>appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
    >>leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
    >>thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of what
    >>he squats.
    >>
    >>Any thoughts?

    >
    >I don't know if it helps at all but I have had this same problem since
    >I started squats a few months back. I have weak hams, glutes, and
    >lower back. In my case I hadn't done any exercise for many years.
    >I suspect a lot of my quad strength was maintained just by walking.
    >The squats are perhaps hitting muscles I don't use as often. When I
    >look at my body I think my glutes may shrunk the most in size over the
    >years. Maybe that is the biggest factor which hadn't considered.
    >
    >I have attempted to correct this with deadlifts and good mornings. I
    >suspect I just need to keep doing more squats to fix it for good.
    >Maybe I will add in leg curls too since I hadn't thought about glutes
    >being a potential problem. My leg extension and leg curl weights
    >are very close in amounts.
    >
    >Watch more closely when he does the lift. I tend to start off
    >normally and then lean more in the further down I squat. That is
    >where the hams and glutes are playing their part. I don't feel I am
    >very good at this even with no weight.


    I didn't realize this problem may be related to my weak squat so I
    watched myself more closely today. I tried some leg curls afterward
    doing squats. I think my hamstrings where the most fatigued from the
    squat workout.

    When I first started doing squats I was using a lot more weight and I
    noticed it more in the quads. When I switched to a much lower weight
    now I feel it in the hamstrings. I think I may have been leaning
    forward to put more weight on the quads during the squat. With the
    light weight I could handle it better and the squats where more
    normal. The hamstrings are getting hit harder because they are
    weaker. So I would recommend dropping the weight quite a bit and see
    if he does them better that way.

    I think I might know now why my squat sucks so bad now. When I frist
    started I did most of my work on an incline hammer stregth machine. I
    am thinking that exercise may have been working mostly my quads. So
    now it is my hamstrings which are holding me back.

    I am glad you posted this. This might be very helpful at getting my
    squat up to a normal weight. I am going to make sure I get in some
    extra hamstring work.


  19. #19
    Bully Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    Shute wrote:
    > On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:28:39 -0400, Shute <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:22:35 +0100, "Bully"
    >> <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his
    >>> squats, appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the
    >>> weight further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out
    >>> of "the hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back
    >>> but he deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
    >>>
    >>> Any thoughts?

    >>
    >> I don't know if it helps at all but I have had this same problem
    >> since I started squats a few months back. I have weak hams, glutes,
    >> and lower back. In my case I hadn't done any exercise for many
    >> years.
    >> I suspect a lot of my quad strength was maintained just by walking.
    >> The squats are perhaps hitting muscles I don't use as often. When I
    >> look at my body I think my glutes may shrunk the most in size over
    >> the years. Maybe that is the biggest factor which hadn't
    >> considered.
    >>
    >> I have attempted to correct this with deadlifts and good mornings. I
    >> suspect I just need to keep doing more squats to fix it for good.
    >> Maybe I will add in leg curls too since I hadn't thought about glutes
    >> being a potential problem. My leg extension and leg curl weights
    >> are very close in amounts.
    >>
    >> Watch more closely when he does the lift. I tend to start off
    >> normally and then lean more in the further down I squat. That is
    >> where the hams and glutes are playing their part. I don't feel I am
    >> very good at this even with no weight.

    >
    > I didn't realize this problem may be related to my weak squat so I
    > watched myself more closely today. I tried some leg curls afterward
    > doing squats. I think my hamstrings where the most fatigued from the
    > squat workout.
    >
    > When I first started doing squats I was using a lot more weight and I
    > noticed it more in the quads. When I switched to a much lower weight
    > now I feel it in the hamstrings. I think I may have been leaning
    > forward to put more weight on the quads during the squat. With the
    > light weight I could handle it better and the squats where more
    > normal. The hamstrings are getting hit harder because they are
    > weaker. So I would recommend dropping the weight quite a bit and see
    > if he does them better that way.
    >
    > I think I might know now why my squat sucks so bad now. When I frist
    > started I did most of my work on an incline hammer stregth machine. I
    > am thinking that exercise may have been working mostly my quads. So
    > now it is my hamstrings which are holding me back.
    >
    > I am glad you posted this. This might be very helpful at getting my
    > squat up to a normal weight. I am going to make sure I get in some
    > extra hamstring work.


    Thanks to everyone who replied to this thread. The chap in question is of
    the tall varierty and I do suspect his deadlift is more back than legs
    [although I will check this out later this week]. For now, until we can
    assess the issue further, he will drop 20kg off his squats and increase the
    reps.

    --
    Bully
    Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
    matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss



  20. #20
    Pete Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    "Lucas Buck" <[email protected]> schreef:

    >>Also, this seem to be a problem with people who are over 6 feet. Shorter
    >>people usually have torsos just as long as people who are 2-3 inches
    >>taller.
    >>The extra inches are in the legs, which also make distance you have to
    >>move
    >>the weight longer.


    > So, what is your _solution_? Have his femurs shortened?


    No.

    My _solution_, assuming my assumption is correct, for this particular guy,
    is to drop the squats and switch to Hacks, leg presses and extensions.

    That is my _solution_.

    Or, as suggested before, do front squats.

    ----
    Pete



  21. #21
    Bully Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    Bully wrote:
    > One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
    > appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight
    > further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the
    > hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back but he
    > deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
    >
    > Any thoughts?


    Relevant article: http://www.myoquip.com.au/Synchronis...at_article.htm

    --
    Bully
    Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
    matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss



  22. #22
    Shute Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 21:40:07 -0000, "Bully" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >Bully wrote:
    >> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
    >> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight
    >> further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the
    >> hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back but he
    >> deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
    >>
    >> Any thoughts?

    >
    >Relevant article: http://www.myoquip.com.au/Synchronis...at_article.htm


    Thanks a great deal for this article Bully. It is rare to find one so
    informative in this sport.

    I can note a few things from my own experience. I noticed a number
    of years ago my ankle flexibility isn't very good. I never noticed a
    problem with my hip and knee joints like the author suggested. My
    form isn't quite as bad as the person being examined. I do calf
    raises as far as I can move my foot. More than just to ground level.
    I don't notice flexibility problem with those. I notice it most when
    I try to do a lunge movement. I cannot easily bend my knees forward
    because of poor ankle movement prevent it. One other interesting note
    is the third diagram is identical to the hammer strength machine I
    used to work out on. The machine I used wasn't on the floor like the
    one suggested. But the angle of lift was the same as the diagram.
    So I guess it was doing a good job but it didn't prepare me for
    squats. Kind of like relying on a belt and then trying to not use
    one.

    I am going to look around to see what I can do to improve my joint
    flexibility. That would be great if it made the squats a bit easier.
    Right now I hate them worse than anything. I found if I knock weight
    off and do them one at a time my form improves. Basically I think
    about getting one done rather than 5. Then I pause a couple seconds
    and do another one.

  23. #23
    Shute Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    On Thu, 02 Nov 2006 17:42:20 -0500, Shute <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 21:40:07 -0000, "Bully" <[email protected]>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>Bully wrote:
    >>> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
    >>> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight
    >>> further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the
    >>> hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back but he
    >>> deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
    >>>
    >>> Any thoughts?

    >>
    >>Relevant article: http://www.myoquip.com.au/Synchronis...at_article.htm

    >
    >Thanks a great deal for this article Bully. It is rare to find one so
    >informative in this sport.
    >
    >I can note a few things from my own experience. I noticed a number
    >of years ago my ankle flexibility isn't very good. I never noticed a
    >problem with my hip and knee joints like the author suggested. My
    >form isn't quite as bad as the person being examined. I do calf
    >raises as far as I can move my foot. More than just to ground level.
    >I don't notice flexibility problem with those. I notice it most when
    >I try to do a lunge movement. I cannot easily bend my knees forward
    >because of poor ankle movement prevent it. One other interesting note
    >is the third diagram is identical to the hammer strength machine I
    >used to work out on. The machine I used wasn't on the floor like the
    >one suggested. But the angle of lift was the same as the diagram.
    >So I guess it was doing a good job but it didn't prepare me for
    >squats. Kind of like relying on a belt and then trying to not use
    >one.
    >
    >I am going to look around to see what I can do to improve my joint
    >flexibility. That would be great if it made the squats a bit easier.
    >Right now I hate them worse than anything. I found if I knock weight
    >off and do them one at a time my form improves. Basically I think
    >about getting one done rather than 5. Then I pause a couple seconds
    >and do another one.


    Here is a link on stretching if anyone is interested:
    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/md10.htm

    There are some movies and a link to more extensive stretches for
    calves and ankles. My problem seems to be more with one ankle than
    the other. I normally do hamstring stretches before hand but not
    these. I noticed a lot of tension release when I tried them. I will
    have to wait until tomorrow to see how they go with squats. I am not
    expecting miracles the first day.





  24. #24
    Shute Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 21:40:07 -0000, "Bully" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >Bully wrote:
    >> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
    >> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight
    >> further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the
    >> hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back but he
    >> deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
    >>
    >> Any thoughts?

    >
    >Relevant article: http://www.myoquip.com.au/Synchronis...at_article.htm


    Hey Bully I tried out some of the stretches in the link I posted.
    They didn't help too much but flexibility is probably going to take
    time. One other thing in there was to place a couple of 5-10 pound
    plates on the ground. Then place them under the heals while doing the
    squat. I tried this out at home just using a broomstick. I noticed a
    huge difference doing them that way. I recall using this method when
    I was a teenager. I have no idea where I got it from or why I started
    doing them that way. This isn't meant to be a long term solution but
    it has to be better then leaning into the squat.


  25. #25
    Bully Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    Shute wrote:
    > On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 21:40:07 -0000, "Bully" <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> Bully wrote:
    >>> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his
    >>> squats, appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight
    >>> further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the
    >>> hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back but he
    >>> deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
    >>>
    >>> Any thoughts?

    >>
    >> Relevant article:
    >> http://www.myoquip.com.au/Synchronis...at_article.htm

    >
    > Hey Bully I tried out some of the stretches in the link I posted.
    > They didn't help too much but flexibility is probably going to take
    > time.


    And then some!!! I'm interested to see under Straight Leg Stretch it states
    "the stretch held for 2-3 seconds at a time". For my money, developmental
    stretches should be held for > 30 seconds! If you have a willing partner
    [fnaar-fnaar -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finbarr_Saunders] you might
    look into PNF stretching too. Actually if you want to increase dorsiflexion
    you could use a thera-band for this but I never find them as effective.

    > One other thing in there was to place a couple of 5-10 pound
    > plates on the ground. Then place them under the heals while doing the
    > squat. I tried this out at home just using a broomstick. I noticed a
    > huge difference doing them that way.


    Yes, but then that's avoiding the problem rather than addressing it!

    > I recall using this method when
    > I was a teenager. I have no idea where I got it from or why I started
    > doing them that way. This isn't meant to be a long term solution but
    > it has to be better then leaning into the squat.


    Ah ok !

    Interestingly, it only just occurred to me that they guy I am working with
    is on his way back from a broken ankle and tibia - duh ! And DUH again !!!!

    --
    Bully
    Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
    matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss



  26. #26
    Shute Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:10:30 -0000, "Bully" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >Ah ok !
    >
    >Interestingly, it only just occurred to me that they guy I am working with
    >is on his way back from a broken ankle and tibia - duh ! And DUH again !!!!


    I am pretty sure my problem stems from old injuries as well. I tried
    the calve exercise at the gym. They where actually easiest to do
    sitting on a flat surface and I agree about stretching for longer
    times. They definitely released tension and will probably help with
    calve raises. Then didn't help at all with squats.

    When I bend my lower leg forward I feel paid on my left inside ankle.
    I seemed to hit this best leaning against a wall with my foot
    stretched back behind me. My left foot has a stopping point which is
    painful. Maybe I can find a way to stretch it out some but I may need
    to see a doctor. I have no problems with it in day to day life so a
    doctor may not help.

    When I think back I guess my left leg has taken a few beatings over
    time. I took a slap shot to the ankle and another to the knee. And
    I injured the knee again in a three wheeler accident. Each time the
    area swelled up like grapefruit. I think it may have gotten worse
    now that I am older.


  27. #27
    Andrzej Rosa Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    Dnia 2006-11-03 Shute napisał(a):
    > On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:10:30 -0000, "Bully" <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>Ah ok !
    >>
    >>Interestingly, it only just occurred to me that they guy I am working with
    >>is on his way back from a broken ankle and tibia - duh ! And DUH again !!!!

    >
    > I am pretty sure my problem stems from old injuries as well. I tried
    > the calve exercise at the gym. They where actually easiest to do
    > sitting on a flat surface and I agree about stretching for longer
    > times. They definitely released tension and will probably help with
    > calve raises. Then didn't help at all with squats.
    >
    > When I bend my lower leg forward I feel paid on my left inside ankle.
    > I seemed to hit this best leaning against a wall with my foot
    > stretched back behind me. My left foot has a stopping point which is
    > painful. Maybe I can find a way to stretch it out some but I may need
    > to see a doctor. I have no problems with it in day to day life so a
    > doctor may not help.
    >
    > When I think back I guess my left leg has taken a few beatings over
    > time. I took a slap shot to the ankle and another to the knee. And
    > I injured the knee again in a three wheeler accident. Each time the
    > area swelled up like grapefruit. I think it may have gotten worse
    > now that I am older.


    For what it may be worth - I dislocated my ankle last winter. I felt
    mild pain in it during day to day activities for many months after
    accident. Started doing stepups, pain's gone[1].

    Hmm, I fixed my left shoulder with one-armed overhead squats, I fixed
    my ankle with stepups. Yeah, I can testify that unilateral work is
    totally useless "functional" crap. ;-)

    1 - That was exactly what I predicted. People were telling me that I
    may feel the effects of this dislocation for the rest of my life, and I
    was pretty damn sure I'll fix it with no problems.

    --
    Andrzej Rosa 1127R

  28. #28
    Bully Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    Shute wrote:
    > On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:10:30 -0000, "Bully" <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> Ah ok !
    >>
    >> Interestingly, it only just occurred to me that they guy I am
    >> working with is on his way back from a broken ankle and tibia - duh
    >> ! And DUH again !!!!

    >
    > I am pretty sure my problem stems from old injuries as well. I tried
    > the calve exercise at the gym. They where actually easiest to do
    > sitting on a flat surface and I agree about stretching for longer
    > times. They definitely released tension and will probably help with
    > calve raises. Then didn't help at all with squats.
    >
    > When I bend my lower leg forward I feel paid on my left inside ankle.
    > I seemed to hit this best leaning against a wall with my foot
    > stretched back behind me. My left foot has a stopping point which is
    > painful. Maybe I can find a way to stretch it out some but I may need
    > to see a doctor. I have no problems with it in day to day life so a
    > doctor may not help.
    >
    > When I think back I guess my left leg has taken a few beatings over
    > time. I took a slap shot to the ankle and another to the knee. And
    > I injured the knee again in a three wheeler accident. Each time the
    > area swelled up like grapefruit. I think it may have gotten worse
    > now that I am older.


    I now have my subject doing PNF daily on his ankle using a thera-band. We'll
    see if that helps with his squat. Althoguh I will measure the results over
    weeks/months rather hours/days [get my poont ?]

    --
    Bully
    Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
    matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss



  29. #29
    Shute Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 22:39:37 -0000, "Bully" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >I now have my subject doing PNF daily on his ankle using a thera-band. We'll
    >see if that helps with his squat. Althoguh I will measure the results over
    >weeks/months rather hours/days [get my poont ?]


    I feel some tingling going on in my ankle foot and shin area tonight.
    Perhaps there is some healing that needs to go with the stretching.

    I had too look up PNF stretching. In doing so I ran across some
    article saying stretching had better results after a workout then
    before. They said the stretches where more efficient when the muscle
    was warmed up. Have you heard that before?

  30. #30
    Shute Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 20:14:11 +0000 (UTC), Andrzej Rosa
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >For what it may be worth - I dislocated my ankle last winter. I felt
    >mild pain in it during day to day activities for many months after
    >accident. Started doing stepups, pain's gone[1].
    >
    >Hmm, I fixed my left shoulder with one-armed overhead squats, I fixed
    >my ankle with stepups. Yeah, I can testify that unilateral work is
    >totally useless "functional" crap. ;-)
    >
    >1 - That was exactly what I predicted. People were telling me that I
    >may feel the effects of this dislocation for the rest of my life, and I
    >was pretty damn sure I'll fix it with no problems.


    Did you use weight during the step-ups? How frequent did you do them
    and for how long?

    I know I had noticed my ankle flexibility was poor before I started
    working out again. I thought it would have improved. I guess nothing
    except calve raises has anything to do with the ankle. I am
    interested to try anything that works.

  31. #31
    Andrzej Rosa Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    Dnia 2006-11-04 Shute napisał(a):
    > On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 20:14:11 +0000 (UTC), Andrzej Rosa
    ><[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>For what it may be worth - I dislocated my ankle last winter. I felt
    >>mild pain in it during day to day activities for many months after
    >>accident. Started doing stepups, pain's gone[1].
    >>
    >>Hmm, I fixed my left shoulder with one-armed overhead squats, I fixed
    >>my ankle with stepups. Yeah, I can testify that unilateral work is
    >>totally useless "functional" crap. ;-)
    >>
    >>1 - That was exactly what I predicted. People were telling me that I
    >>may feel the effects of this dislocation for the rest of my life, and I
    >>was pretty damn sure I'll fix it with no problems.

    >
    > Did you use weight during the step-ups? How frequent did you do them
    > and for how long?


    I started stepups maybe a month ago and with weights. Ankle was
    good enough for that for quite a while, of course. I was just lazy,
    because pain I sometimes felt was mild, so, well, I was lazy. ;-)

    At the beginning stepups were a bit painful, but not so much that it
    prevented me from doing them. Now everything is fine, as far as I can
    tell. A bit of right stimulation obviously helped.

    > I know I had noticed my ankle flexibility was poor before I started
    > working out again. I thought it would have improved. I guess nothing
    > except calve raises has anything to do with the ankle. I am
    > interested to try anything that works.


    To be honest, I do not expect that stepups will fix your problem. They
    do not require much flexibility, but if you have a problem with
    stability on top of flexibility issues, they might work fine. For calf
    flexibility I'd recommend squatting. Like, you need to rest a little
    between your sets, squat. Sissy squats, if you can't do flat footed
    squats. Or one leg flat footed and other sissy squatting. It actually
    helps with flexibility. For me it worked much better then stretching,
    but you already know that I'm lazy, so I don't stretch often enough
    and for long enough. And I remember that Dan John wrote somewhere,
    that in his first gym they had a machine for ankle mobility. It was a
    step on a staircase. Take a look around your gym, maybe they have this
    machine? ;-)

    Anyway, as long as you can squat, keep squatting. Over time your body
    will adapt to new demands.

    --
    Andrzej Rosa 1127R

  32. #32
    Shute Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    On Sat, 4 Nov 2006 02:09:43 +0000 (UTC), Andrzej Rosa
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I started stepups maybe a month ago and with weights. Ankle was
    >good enough for that for quite a while, of course. I was just lazy,
    >because pain I sometimes felt was mild, so, well, I was lazy. ;-)
    >
    >At the beginning stepups were a bit painful, but not so much that it
    >prevented me from doing them. Now everything is fine, as far as I can
    >tell. A bit of right stimulation obviously helped.


    In my case it isn't painful doing them without weight.

    >To be honest, I do not expect that stepups will fix your problem. They
    >do not require much flexibility, but if you have a problem with
    >stability on top of flexibility issues, they might work fine. For calf
    >flexibility I'd recommend squatting. Like, you need to rest a little
    >between your sets, squat. Sissy squats, if you can't do flat footed
    >squats. Or one leg flat footed and other sissy squatting. It actually
    >helps with flexibility. For me it worked much better then stretching,
    >but you already know that I'm lazy, so I don't stretch often enough
    >and for long enough. And I remember that Dan John wrote somewhere,
    >that in his first gym they had a machine for ankle mobility. It was a
    >step on a staircase. Take a look around your gym, maybe they have this
    >machine? ;-)
    >
    >Anyway, as long as you can squat, keep squatting. Over time your body
    >will adapt to new demands.


    What would be a symptom of a stability problem? If I squat down with
    no weight my legs begin to shake a bit before I reach the sticking
    point. That may be why I never felt the pain during squats. My body
    starts having problems even before I get that far.

    I had to look up the sissy squat here:
    http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...issySquat.html

    There is no way I could do those. The pain in my ankle occurs as my
    knee moves forward over the top of the foot. My knee can just barely
    go forward during a regular squat. Those go to an extreme I can't
    match.

    Tonight I tried squatting with a plate under my heels. My back feels
    a lot better tonight. I thought maybe I was having problems with
    deadlifts but it may have been the squats screwing with my back. If
    you do a squat with no weight you can see your knee move forward the
    deeper into the squat you get. In my case it can't move forward to
    far so my body compensates by shifting my upper body forward.
    According the web page Bully posted that does some nasty things to the
    spine.

    I am going to keep the plates under my heals for a while. Then
    continue with the stretching. I have been stretching my hamstrings
    for years. I have never done a calf stretch until today. My ankles
    might not be moving better but they seem to feel better. It feels
    like I released some tension I didn't even know was there.



  33. #33
    Bully Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    Shute wrote:
    > On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 22:39:37 -0000, "Bully" <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> I now have my subject doing PNF daily on his ankle using a
    >> thera-band. We'll see if that helps with his squat. Althoguh I will
    >> measure the results over weeks/months rather hours/days [get my
    >> poont ?]

    >
    > I feel some tingling going on in my ankle foot and shin area tonight.
    > Perhaps there is some healing that needs to go with the stretching.
    >
    > I had too look up PNF stretching. In doing so I ran across some
    > article saying stretching had better results after a workout then
    > before. They said the stretches where more efficient when the muscle
    > was warmed up. Have you heard that before?


    Blimey, you ARE new to this aren't you ;~) ! TBH, if there were a Usenet
    group called rec.stretching that had started 20 years ago, this topic would
    have been the first topic they discussed and they would still be arguing
    about it now ! Or now thinking about it, the argument would be whether
    stretching before exercise reduces the risk of injury. Or was it, does
    stretching after exercise reduce the risk of subsequent muscle soreness?
    Whatever, they'd be arguing about something; maybe dogs or guns!

    Anyhow, I'm not sure stretches are "more efficient" when the muscle is
    warmed up, but doing your stretching once the muscle is warm will reduce the
    chance of injury whilst stretching. The $2.50 question though is "when is a
    muscle warm"?

    --
    Bully
    Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
    matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss



  34. #34
    Andrzej Rosa Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    Dnia 2006-11-04 Shute napisał(a):
    > On Sat, 4 Nov 2006 02:09:43 +0000 (UTC), Andrzej Rosa
    ><[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>To be honest, I do not expect that stepups will fix your problem. They
    >>do not require much flexibility, but if you have a problem with
    >>stability on top of flexibility issues, they might work fine. For calf
    >>flexibility I'd recommend squatting. Like, you need to rest a little
    >>between your sets, squat. Sissy squats, if you can't do flat footed
    >>squats. Or one leg flat footed and other sissy squatting. It actually
    >>helps with flexibility. For me it worked much better then stretching,
    >>but you already know that I'm lazy, so I don't stretch often enough
    >>and for long enough. And I remember that Dan John wrote somewhere,
    >>that in his first gym they had a machine for ankle mobility. It was a
    >>step on a staircase. Take a look around your gym, maybe they have this
    >>machine? ;-)
    >>
    >>Anyway, as long as you can squat, keep squatting. Over time your body
    >>will adapt to new demands.

    >
    > What would be a symptom of a stability problem?


    Ankle moves in all directions. If muscles around it aren't strong and
    balanced, one may experience problems with keeping it rigid under load.
    Well, that's how I understand it...

    > If I squat down with
    > no weight my legs begin to shake a bit before I reach the sticking
    > point. That may be why I never felt the pain during squats. My body
    > starts having problems even before I get that far.
    >
    > I had to look up the sissy squat here:
    > http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...issySquat.html


    These are a bit extreme. I thought just about squatting on your toes
    with normal vertical spine, like here:
    http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/combat/hs.jpg

    However, the link you found shows a very good exercise for quads with
    much better resistance curve than knee extensions.

    > There is no way I could do those. The pain in my ankle occurs as my
    > knee moves forward over the top of the foot. My knee can just barely
    > go forward during a regular squat. Those go to an extreme I can't
    > match.
    >
    > Tonight I tried squatting with a plate under my heels. My back feels
    > a lot better tonight. I thought maybe I was having problems with
    > deadlifts but it may have been the squats screwing with my back. If
    > you do a squat with no weight you can see your knee move forward the
    > deeper into the squat you get. In my case it can't move forward to
    > far so my body compensates by shifting my upper body forward.
    > According the web page Bully posted that does some nasty things to the
    > spine.
    >
    > I am going to keep the plates under my heals for a while. Then
    > continue with the stretching. I have been stretching my hamstrings
    > for years. I have never done a calf stretch until today. My ankles
    > might not be moving better but they seem to feel better. It feels
    > like I released some tension I didn't even know was there.


    It seems like you are on a right track.

    --
    Andrzej Rosa 1127R

  35. #35
    Andrzej Rosa Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    Dnia 2006-11-04 Andrzej Rosa napisał(a):
    >
    > It seems like you are on a right track.


    I thought I'll try to write some more about other possibilities you
    might consider.

    First, your knees do not have to go forward of your toes. The wider
    the stance the less your knees must travel forward to keep a bar above
    your feet. Stu just published his squat
    http://users.tpg.com.au/~siordon/DSCF3206c.AVI
    and you may see, that his knees do not go beyond his toes. Wide stance
    squats require groin flexibility, so there is something for something.

    What I'd probably do if I was in your situation, would be to find a
    balance between narrow stance, high bar Olympic style squats and wide
    stance, low bar Powerlifting squats which allowed me to squat best, and
    worked on depth from this point.

    If your back hurts after squatting, you most probably flex your spine
    to go deeper. It's not good. If you can't go deep with straight
    spine, just do not go deep at the moment. Like I said, I'd widen my
    stance and go as deep as I could without flexing my spine, and work on
    depth from there.

    Other possibilities which you might consider, are squats with weight
    forward of your body, which means front squats and Zercher squats.
    Both are very good leg builders and they require less ankle
    flexibility. Front squats require wrist flexibility, but if you do it
    often, you'll get it. Zerchers can be painful, so some kind of padding
    in the crook of your elbows is needed, or fat bar, or pvc pipe over
    bar, or those pussy-pads which some people put on a bar for back
    squatting. There are hack squats too, where you deadlift a bar which
    lies on the floor behind you (watch your back for flexing). There are
    trap bar squats, there are dumbbell squats. Plenty of possibilities.

    I wrote this just in case you'll need it. I do not say that what you
    planned is wrong. It makes sense.

    --
    Andrzej Rosa 1127R

  36. #36
    Curt Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    Bully wrote:
    > John Hanson wrote:
    > > "Bully" wrote:
    > >
    > >> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his
    > >> squats, appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight
    > >> further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the
    > >> hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back but he
    > >> deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
    > >>
    > >> Any thoughts?

    > >
    > > Have him do some front squats. That will correct the problem.

    >
    > Are you sure?


    I'm not sure it would solve the problem as although front squats would
    certainly make leaning forward more difficult to do as compared to back
    squats, the offset of weight being used during the exercise would make
    it... six of one versus half a dozen of the other?

    I mean it your protege leans too far foward in a front squat, well,
    there goes the bar or there goes his back, right? He'll drop it or
    he'll round back. Also, his weight used will be significantly less so
    what's the point?

    Back to your original post - define _leans way too far forward when
    driving up_. Is his back rounded as he's leaning forward or is he
    leaning forward but with the heads up and back straight or curved the
    "correct" way? I'm guessing that his physique is put together unlike
    yours and so this may be his natural style or form for front squats.

    As his trainer, have you "cranked up the weight further" too soon? Make
    haste slowly is a familiar saying. Maybe it's also not bad advice?

    No answers, but a few more questions for you to consider perhaps.

    > Bully
    > Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk


    Curt
    Musical bars: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_notation

    --


  37. #37
    Shute Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    On Sat, 4 Nov 2006 11:57:56 +0000 (UTC), Andrzej Rosa
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >> What would be a symptom of a stability problem?

    >
    >Ankle moves in all directions. If muscles around it aren't strong and
    >balanced, one may experience problems with keeping it rigid under load.
    >Well, that's how I understand it...


    My ankles have always been strong. I have known people with weak ones
    and they tend to get hurt easy. I played hockey for ten years as
    child and keeping ankles balanced is one of the first things I learn.

    My hamstrings and inner thighs tend to be tight all the time. I have
    more flexibility in those areas nowadays but the muscles still get
    tight. Stretching the calve muscles may help loosen up the whole leg.

    >These are a bit extreme. I thought just about squatting on your toes
    >with normal vertical spine, like here:
    >http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/combat/hs.jpg


    Those still look painful. My knew doesn't move forward more than an
    inch or so. And even bending at the foot is just enough to walk with.



  38. #38
    [email protected] Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    I would look at assessing his gluteal strength, particularly medius and
    minimus. When you're squatting deeper and leaning over you recruit
    those muscles, but you don't with a half squat or when you're more
    upright. If he doesn't have medius and minimus strength he won't be
    able to counteract and forward leaning, not that forward leaning is bad
    to a degree. Those muscles might have been able to handle the early
    weights, but now it's too much for them.

    If that line of investigation comes up empty, maybe it's hamstrings,
    although the deadlift result would also put doubt on that.

    Bully wrote:
    > One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
    > appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
    > leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
    > thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of what
    > he squats.
    >
    > Any thoughts?
    >
    > --
    > Bully
    > Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
    >
    > "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter,
    > and those who matter don't mind."
    > - Dr. Seuss



  39. #39
    Bully Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    [email protected] wrote:
    > I would look at assessing his gluteal strength, particularly medius
    > and minimus. When you're squatting deeper and leaning over you recruit
    > those muscles, but you don't with a half squat or when you're more
    > upright. If he doesn't have medius and minimus strength he won't be
    > able to counteract and forward leaning, not that forward leaning is
    > bad to a degree. Those muscles might have been able to handle the
    > early weights, but now it's too much for them.
    >
    > If that line of investigation comes up empty, maybe it's hamstrings,
    > although the deadlift result would also put doubt on that.
    >
    > Bully wrote:
    >> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his
    >> squats, appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight
    >> further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the
    >> hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back but he
    >> deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
    >>
    >> Any thoughts?
    >>
    >> --
    >> Bully
    >> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
    >>
    >> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
    >> matter, and those who matter don't mind."
    >> - Dr. Seuss


    Thanks. That was exactly what the club physio said !!!

    Will check his glute strength...

    --
    Bully
    Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
    matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss



  40. #40
    Bully Guest

    Default Re: On topic: problem with squats

    Curt wrote:
    > Bully wrote:
    >> John Hanson wrote:
    >>> "Bully" wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his
    >>>> squats, appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the
    >>>> weight further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out
    >>>> of "the hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower
    >>>> back but he deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
    >>>>
    >>>> Any thoughts?
    >>>
    >>> Have him do some front squats. That will correct the problem.

    >>
    >> Are you sure?

    >
    > I'm not sure it would solve the problem as although front squats would
    > certainly make leaning forward more difficult to do as compared to
    > back squats, the offset of weight being used during the exercise
    > would make it... six of one versus half a dozen of the other?
    >
    > I mean it your protege leans too far foward in a front squat, well,
    > there goes the bar or there goes his back, right? He'll drop it or
    > he'll round back. Also, his weight used will be significantly less so
    > what's the point?
    >
    > Back to your original post - define _leans way too far forward when
    > driving up_. Is his back rounded as he's leaning forward or is he

    No.

    > leaning forward but with the heads up and back straight or curved the
    > "correct" way?

    Yes.

    > I'm guessing that his physique is put together unlike
    > yours and so this may be his natural style or form for front squats.
    >
    > As his trainer, have you "cranked up the weight further" too soon?


    No, he did that himself! I've told him to drop it 20kg.

    > Make haste slowly is a familiar saying. Maybe it's also not bad
    > advice?
    >
    > No answers, but a few more questions for you to consider perhaps.
    >
    >> Bully
    >> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

    >
    > Curt
    > Musical bars: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_notation




    --
    Bully
    Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
    matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss



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