On topic: problem with squats

One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of what
he squats.

Any thoughts?

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter,
and those who matter don't mind."
- Dr. Seuss

"Bully" <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok> schreef:

> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
> leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
> thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of
> what he squats.

> Any thoughts?

I suspect his legs are long wrt his torso.

My legs are short wrt my torso, and when i am "in the whole" i do not
incline that much forward.

Also, this seem to be a problem with people who are over 6 feet. Shorter
people usually have torsos just as long as people who are 2-3 inches taller.
The extra inches are in the legs, which also make distance you have to move
the weight longer.

BTW, how does he deadlift? I mean, what seems to be the dominant joint and
muscles used?

----
Pete

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:22:35 +0100, "Bully" <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok>
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
>appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
>leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
>thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of what
>he squats.
>
>Any thoughts?

Have him do some front squats. That will correct the problem.

John Hanson wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:22:35 +0100, "Bully" <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok>
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
>> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his
>> squats, appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight
>> further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the
>> hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back but he
>> deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>
> Have him do some front squats. That will correct the problem.

Are you sure?

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

In article <4qe1egFmrjhkU1@individual.net>,
"Bully" <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote:

> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
> leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
> thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of what
> he squats.
>
> Any thoughts?

Weak glutes and hamstrings.

Front squat comes immediately to mind to help with technique. If you
have access the glute/ham/gastroc bench would be good. If not - manual
hamstring curls, reverse hyper, etc.

--
Keith

Hobbes wrote:
> In article <4qe1egFmrjhkU1@individual.net>,
> "Bully" <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote:
>
>> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his
>> squats, appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight
>> further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the
>> hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back but he
>> deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>

> Weak glutes and hamstrings.

Glutes was one area I considered, not so hammies!

Could the corollary to this be over developed ab/adductors?

>
> Front squat comes immediately to mind to help with technique. If you
> have access the glute/ham/gastroc bench would be good. If not - manual
> hamstring curls, reverse hyper, etc.

OK, cheers.

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

"Hobbes" <khobman800@yahoo.com> schreef:

>> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
>> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
>> leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
>> thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of
>> what
>> he squats.

>> Any thoughts?

> Weak glutes and hamstrings.

If he can pull 140% of what he can squat, i think its safe to assume he has
strong glutes and hams.

I am not sure, but i think its a pretty good assumption.

> Front squat comes immediately to mind to help with technique.

Seems to me that front squats will stress the quads more then back squats.
Dont you think good mornings can solve this problem?

----
Pete

Dnia 2006-10-27 Hobbes napisa³(a):
> In article <4qe1egFmrjhkU1@individual.net>,
> "Bully" <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote:
>
>> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
>> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
>> leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
>> thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of what
>> he squats.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>
> Weak glutes and hamstrings.

So he leans forward to transfer the load to those weak muscles? I
think that weak quads is the problem.

> Front squat comes immediately to mind to help with technique.

And this makes sense. More quad dominant exercise to fix quad weakness.

[...]
--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

In article <4qecipFmnpgfU1@individual.net>,
"Bully" <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote:

> Hobbes wrote:
> > In article <4qe1egFmrjhkU1@individual.net>,
> > "Bully" <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote:
> >
> >> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his
> >> squats, appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight
> >> further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the
> >> hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back but he
> >> deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
> >>
> >> Any thoughts?
> >
>
> > Weak glutes and hamstrings.
>
> Glutes was one area I considered, not so hammies!
>
> Could the corollary to this be over developed ab/adductors?

I think so. Certainly if the lower back is a strength (ie.
over-developed) it could happen. Ditto for the adductors (more so than
the abductors in this case). You tend to use what works!

Hamstrings are also hip extensors, remember.

--
Keith

In article <4541ff87$0$82054$dbd4d001@news.wanadoo.nl>,
"Pete" <phoutstra@wanadoo.nl> wrote:

> "Hobbes" <khobman800@yahoo.com> schreef:
>
> >> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
> >> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
> >> leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
> >> thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of
> >> what
> >> he squats.
>
> >> Any thoughts?
>
> > Weak glutes and hamstrings.
>
> If he can pull 140% of what he can squat, i think its safe to assume he has
> strong glutes and hams.

Nope. He could be hoisting all lower back. And you don't come out of the
hole in a deep squat using your quads that much. More glutes and
hamdstrings. Hip extension. More quads once the joint angle at the knee
is more favourable.

Also remember strength is specific to joint angles for partial
movements. In terms of knee and hip extension the deadlift is a partial
movement. Not so the deep squat.

--
Keith

In article <ehsvo5$gun$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dnia 2006-10-27 Hobbes napisa³(a):
> > In article <4qe1egFmrjhkU1@individual.net>,
> > "Bully" <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote:
> >
> >> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
> >> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
> >> leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
> >> thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of
> >> what
> >> he squats.
> >>
> >> Any thoughts?
> >
> > Weak glutes and hamstrings.
>
> So he leans forward to transfer the load to those weak muscles? I
> think that weak quads is the problem.
>
> > Front squat comes immediately to mind to help with technique.
>
> And this makes sense. More quad dominant exercise to fix quad weakness.
>
> [...]


I'd disagree with that. Not in the hole in a deep squat. You start with
hip extension. Glutes and hamstings. He is leaning forward to get the
lower back more involved, not the glutes and hammies, IMO. I'd have to
see it, but weak quads are not likely the problem of leaning excessively
forward coming out of the hole.

Another thing may be creating intra-abdominal pressure and static
strength in the abs and lower back. But not likely if he is a strong
deadlifter. I'm betting he deadlifts with his hips relatively high and
uses a lot of lower back. So I stick with hams and glutes.

--
Keith

Dnia 2006-10-27 Hobbes napisa³(a):
> In article <ehsvo5$gun$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
> Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Dnia 2006-10-27 Hobbes napisa³(a):
>> > In article <4qe1egFmrjhkU1@individual.net>,
>> > "Bully" <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote:
>> >
>> >> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
>> >> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
>> >> leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
>> >> thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of
>> >> what
>> >> he squats.
>> >>
>> >> Any thoughts?
>> >
>> > Weak glutes and hamstrings.
>>
>> So he leans forward to transfer the load to those weak muscles? I
>> think that weak quads is the problem.
>>
>> > Front squat comes immediately to mind to help with technique.
>>
>> And this makes sense. More quad dominant exercise to fix quad weakness.
>>
>> [...]
>
>
> I'd disagree with that. Not in the hole in a deep squat. You start with
> hip extension. Glutes and hamstings. He is leaning forward to get the
> lower back more involved, not the glutes and hammies, IMO. I'd have to
> see it, but weak quads are not likely the problem of leaning excessively
> forward coming out of the hole.
>
> Another thing may be creating intra-abdominal pressure and static
> strength in the abs and lower back. But not likely if he is a strong
> deadlifter. I'm betting he deadlifts with his hips relatively high and
> uses a lot of lower back. So I stick with hams and glutes.

All right. It seems counterintuitive, but if you are saying something
I listen.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

"Hobbes" <khobman800@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:khobman800-C7D149.07505027102006@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> I'd disagree with that. Not in the hole in a deep squat. You start with
> hip extension. Glutes and hamstings. He is leaning forward to get the
> lower back more involved, not the glutes and hammies, IMO. I'd have to
> see it, but weak quads are not likely the problem of leaning excessively
> forward coming out of the hole.
>
> Another thing may be creating intra-abdominal pressure and static
> strength in the abs and lower back. But not likely if he is a strong
> deadlifter. I'm betting he deadlifts with his hips relatively high and
> uses a lot of lower back. So I stick with hams and glutes.

I think you've nailed an issue I'm having, as I'm trying to get back into
lifting since a back injury. Thanks. I'm going to focus on my glutes and
hamstrings to see if I can't sit back on my squats a little better.

I have short thighs relative to my torso. My deadlifts were really strong
before I hurt my back, but I've always had to struggle with my squat form
(tendency to tip forward, like the guy Bully describes) and could never
advance very far in terms of weight with my squats, and I'm even worse now
that I'm weak all over. I do notice that my hamstrings are quite weak on my
hamstring curls, relative to my quads, etc. I'm going to work with some
forward squats with my BF -- I've never done forward squats.

Thanks again.

ep
(No, I didn't hurt my back lifting. It was a backpacking/mountain-climbing
injury. I sprained four or five thoracic back ribs on my left side, while
(and probably because, in part) my right rhomboid was already atrophied
before that from *another* backpacking injury many years ago.)

"Hobbes" <khobman800@yahoo.com> schreef:

>> > Weak glutes and hamstrings.

>> If he can pull 140% of what he can squat, i think its safe to assume he
>> has
>> strong glutes and hams.

> Nope.

Okay.

> He could be hoisting all lower back. And you don't come out of the
> hole in a deep squat using your quads that much.

I know.

> More glutes and hamdstrings. Hip extension.

I know.

> More quads once the joint angle at the knee
> is more favourable.

> Also remember strength is specific to joint angles for partial
> movements. In terms of knee and hip extension the deadlift is a partial
> movement. Not so the deep squat.

Agreed. Partially.
It seems that in the dead hip flexion is maximal before you extends.
Knee flexion is partial, at least compared to a squat.

----
Pete

In article <454224ed$0$93579$dbd4b001@news.wanadoo.nl>,
"Pete" <phoutstra@wanadoo.nl> wrote:

> "Hobbes" <khobman800@yahoo.com> schreef:
>
> >> > Weak glutes and hamstrings.
>
> >> If he can pull 140% of what he can squat, i think its safe to assume he
> >> has
> >> strong glutes and hams.
>
> > Nope.
>
> Okay.
>
> > He could be hoisting all lower back. And you don't come out of the
> > hole in a deep squat using your quads that much.
>
> I know.
>
> > More glutes and hamdstrings. Hip extension.
>
> I know.
>
> > More quads once the joint angle at the knee
> > is more favourable.
>
> > Also remember strength is specific to joint angles for partial
> > movements. In terms of knee and hip extension the deadlift is a partial
> > movement. Not so the deep squat.
>
> Agreed. Partially.
> It seems that in the dead hip flexion is maximal before you extends.
> Knee flexion is partial, at least compared to a squat.
>

I see what you mean. It would be interesting to see video of what is
happening. The problem is there is a lot of hip extension in most, but
some people do more of a stiff-legged deadlift type of effort.

Difficult to analyze verbally.

--
Keith

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:22:35 +0100, "Bully" <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok>
wrote:

>One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
>appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
>leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
>thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of what
>he squats.
>
>Any thoughts?

I don't know if it helps at all but I have had this same problem since
I started squats a few months back. I have weak hams, glutes, and
lower back. In my case I hadn't done any exercise for many years.
I suspect a lot of my quad strength was maintained just by walking.
The squats are perhaps hitting muscles I don't use as often. When I
look at my body I think my glutes may shrunk the most in size over the
years. Maybe that is the biggest factor which hadn't considered.

I have attempted to correct this with deadlifts and good mornings. I
suspect I just need to keep doing more squats to fix it for good.
Maybe I will add in leg curls too since I hadn't thought about glutes
being a potential problem. My leg extension and leg curl weights
are very close in amounts.

Watch more closely when he does the lift. I tend to start off
normally and then lean more in the further down I squat. That is
where the hams and glutes are playing their part. I don't feel I am
very good at this even with no weight.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:47:20 +0200, "Pete" <phoutstra@wanadoo.nl> wrote:

>"Bully" <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok> schreef:
>
>> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
>> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
>> leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
>> thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of
>> what he squats.
>
>> Any thoughts?
>
>I suspect his legs are long wrt his torso.
>
>My legs are short wrt my torso, and when i am "in the whole" i do not
>incline that much forward.
>
>Also, this seem to be a problem with people who are over 6 feet. Shorter
>people usually have torsos just as long as people who are 2-3 inches taller.
>The extra inches are in the legs, which also make distance you have to move
>the weight longer.

So, what is your _solution_? Have his femurs shortened?

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:28:39 -0400, Shute <Shute@nowhere.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:22:35 +0100, "Bully" <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok>
>wrote:
>
>>One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
>>appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
>>leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
>>thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of what
>>he squats.
>>
>>Any thoughts?
>
>I don't know if it helps at all but I have had this same problem since
>I started squats a few months back. I have weak hams, glutes, and
>lower back. In my case I hadn't done any exercise for many years.
>I suspect a lot of my quad strength was maintained just by walking.
>The squats are perhaps hitting muscles I don't use as often. When I
>look at my body I think my glutes may shrunk the most in size over the
>years. Maybe that is the biggest factor which hadn't considered.
>
>I have attempted to correct this with deadlifts and good mornings. I
>suspect I just need to keep doing more squats to fix it for good.
>Maybe I will add in leg curls too since I hadn't thought about glutes
>being a potential problem. My leg extension and leg curl weights
>are very close in amounts.
>
>Watch more closely when he does the lift. I tend to start off
>normally and then lean more in the further down I squat. That is
>where the hams and glutes are playing their part. I don't feel I am
>very good at this even with no weight.

I didn't realize this problem may be related to my weak squat so I
watched myself more closely today. I tried some leg curls afterward
doing squats. I think my hamstrings where the most fatigued from the
squat workout.

When I first started doing squats I was using a lot more weight and I
noticed it more in the quads. When I switched to a much lower weight
now I feel it in the hamstrings. I think I may have been leaning
forward to put more weight on the quads during the squat. With the
light weight I could handle it better and the squats where more
normal. The hamstrings are getting hit harder because they are
weaker. So I would recommend dropping the weight quite a bit and see
if he does them better that way.

I think I might know now why my squat sucks so bad now. When I frist
started I did most of my work on an incline hammer stregth machine. I
am thinking that exercise may have been working mostly my quads. So
now it is my hamstrings which are holding me back.

I am glad you posted this. This might be very helpful at getting my
squat up to a normal weight. I am going to make sure I get in some
extra hamstring work.

Shute wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:28:39 -0400, Shute <Shute@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:22:35 +0100, "Bully"
>> <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote:
>>
>>> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his
>>> squats, appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the
>>> weight further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out
>>> of "the hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back
>>> but he deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts?
>>
>> I don't know if it helps at all but I have had this same problem
>> since I started squats a few months back. I have weak hams, glutes,
>> and lower back. In my case I hadn't done any exercise for many
>> years.
>> I suspect a lot of my quad strength was maintained just by walking.
>> The squats are perhaps hitting muscles I don't use as often. When I
>> look at my body I think my glutes may shrunk the most in size over
>> the years. Maybe that is the biggest factor which hadn't
>> considered.
>>
>> I have attempted to correct this with deadlifts and good mornings. I
>> suspect I just need to keep doing more squats to fix it for good.
>> Maybe I will add in leg curls too since I hadn't thought about glutes
>> being a potential problem. My leg extension and leg curl weights
>> are very close in amounts.
>>
>> Watch more closely when he does the lift. I tend to start off
>> normally and then lean more in the further down I squat. That is
>> where the hams and glutes are playing their part. I don't feel I am
>> very good at this even with no weight.
>
> I didn't realize this problem may be related to my weak squat so I
> watched myself more closely today. I tried some leg curls afterward
> doing squats. I think my hamstrings where the most fatigued from the
> squat workout.
>
> When I first started doing squats I was using a lot more weight and I
> noticed it more in the quads. When I switched to a much lower weight
> now I feel it in the hamstrings. I think I may have been leaning
> forward to put more weight on the quads during the squat. With the
> light weight I could handle it better and the squats where more
> normal. The hamstrings are getting hit harder because they are
> weaker. So I would recommend dropping the weight quite a bit and see
> if he does them better that way.
>
> I think I might know now why my squat sucks so bad now. When I frist
> started I did most of my work on an incline hammer stregth machine. I
> am thinking that exercise may have been working mostly my quads. So
> now it is my hamstrings which are holding me back.
>
> I am glad you posted this. This might be very helpful at getting my
> squat up to a normal weight. I am going to make sure I get in some
> extra hamstring work.

Thanks to everyone who replied to this thread. The chap in question is of
the tall varierty and I do suspect his deadlift is more back than legs
[although I will check this out later this week]. For now, until we can
assess the issue further, he will drop 20kg off his squats and increase the
reps.

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

"Lucas Buck" <sbcpark@earthlink.NOSPAM.net> schreef:

>>Also, this seem to be a problem with people who are over 6 feet. Shorter
>>people usually have torsos just as long as people who are 2-3 inches
>>taller.
>>The extra inches are in the legs, which also make distance you have to
>>move
>>the weight longer.

> So, what is your _solution_? Have his femurs shortened?

No.

My _solution_, assuming my assumption is correct, for this particular guy,
is to drop the squats and switch to Hacks, leg presses and extensions.

That is my _solution_.

Or, as suggested before, do front squats.

----
Pete

Bully wrote:
> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight
> further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the
> hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back but he
> deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
>
> Any thoughts?

Relevant article: http://www.myoquip.com.au/Synchronis...at_article.htm

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 21:40:07 -0000, "Bully" <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok>
wrote:

>Bully wrote:
>> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
>> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight
>> further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the
>> hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back but he
>> deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>
>Relevant article: http://www.myoquip.com.au/Synchronis...at_article.htm

Thanks a great deal for this article Bully. It is rare to find one so
informative in this sport.

I can note a few things from my own experience. I noticed a number
of years ago my ankle flexibility isn't very good. I never noticed a
problem with my hip and knee joints like the author suggested. My
form isn't quite as bad as the person being examined. I do calf
raises as far as I can move my foot. More than just to ground level.
I don't notice flexibility problem with those. I notice it most when
I try to do a lunge movement. I cannot easily bend my knees forward
because of poor ankle movement prevent it. One other interesting note
is the third diagram is identical to the hammer strength machine I
used to work out on. The machine I used wasn't on the floor like the
one suggested. But the angle of lift was the same as the diagram.
So I guess it was doing a good job but it didn't prepare me for
squats. Kind of like relying on a belt and then trying to not use
one.

I am going to look around to see what I can do to improve my joint
flexibility. That would be great if it made the squats a bit easier.
Right now I hate them worse than anything. I found if I knock weight
off and do them one at a time my form improves. Basically I think
about getting one done rather than 5. Then I pause a couple seconds
and do another one.

On Thu, 02 Nov 2006 17:42:20 -0500, Shute <Shute@nowhere.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 21:40:07 -0000, "Bully" <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok>
>wrote:
>
>>Bully wrote:
>>> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
>>> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight
>>> further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the
>>> hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back but he
>>> deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts?
>>
>>Relevant article: http://www.myoquip.com.au/Synchronis...at_article.htm
>
>Thanks a great deal for this article Bully. It is rare to find one so
>informative in this sport.
>
>I can note a few things from my own experience. I noticed a number
>of years ago my ankle flexibility isn't very good. I never noticed a
>problem with my hip and knee joints like the author suggested. My
>form isn't quite as bad as the person being examined. I do calf
>raises as far as I can move my foot. More than just to ground level.
>I don't notice flexibility problem with those. I notice it most when
>I try to do a lunge movement. I cannot easily bend my knees forward
>because of poor ankle movement prevent it. One other interesting note
>is the third diagram is identical to the hammer strength machine I
>used to work out on. The machine I used wasn't on the floor like the
>one suggested. But the angle of lift was the same as the diagram.
>So I guess it was doing a good job but it didn't prepare me for
>squats. Kind of like relying on a belt and then trying to not use
>one.
>
>I am going to look around to see what I can do to improve my joint
>flexibility. That would be great if it made the squats a bit easier.
>Right now I hate them worse than anything. I found if I knock weight
>off and do them one at a time my form improves. Basically I think
>about getting one done rather than 5. Then I pause a couple seconds
>and do another one.

Here is a link on stretching if anyone is interested:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/md10.htm

There are some movies and a link to more extensive stretches for
calves and ankles. My problem seems to be more with one ankle than
the other. I normally do hamstring stretches before hand but not
these. I noticed a lot of tension release when I tried them. I will
have to wait until tomorrow to see how they go with squats. I am not
expecting miracles the first day.

On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 21:40:07 -0000, "Bully" <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok>
wrote:

>Bully wrote:
>> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
>> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight
>> further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the
>> hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back but he
>> deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>
>Relevant article: http://www.myoquip.com.au/Synchronis...at_article.htm

Hey Bully I tried out some of the stretches in the link I posted.
They didn't help too much but flexibility is probably going to take
time. One other thing in there was to place a couple of 5-10 pound
plates on the ground. Then place them under the heals while doing the
squat. I tried this out at home just using a broomstick. I noticed a
huge difference doing them that way. I recall using this method when
I was a teenager. I have no idea where I got it from or why I started
doing them that way. This isn't meant to be a long term solution but
it has to be better then leaning into the squat.

Shute wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 21:40:07 -0000, "Bully" <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok>
> wrote:
>
>> Bully wrote:
>>> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his
>>> squats, appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight
>>> further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the
>>> hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back but he
>>> deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts?
>>
>> Relevant article:
>> http://www.myoquip.com.au/Synchronis...at_article.htm
>
> Hey Bully I tried out some of the stretches in the link I posted.
> They didn't help too much but flexibility is probably going to take
> time.

And then some!!! I'm interested to see under Straight Leg Stretch it states
"the stretch held for 2-3 seconds at a time". For my money, developmental
stretches should be held for > 30 seconds! If you have a willing partner
[fnaar-fnaar -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finbarr_Saunders] you might
look into PNF stretching too. Actually if you want to increase dorsiflexion
you could use a thera-band for this but I never find them as effective.

> One other thing in there was to place a couple of 5-10 pound
> plates on the ground. Then place them under the heals while doing the
> squat. I tried this out at home just using a broomstick. I noticed a
> huge difference doing them that way.

Yes, but then that's avoiding the problem rather than addressing it!

> I recall using this method when
> I was a teenager. I have no idea where I got it from or why I started
> doing them that way. This isn't meant to be a long term solution but
> it has to be better then leaning into the squat.

Ah ok !

Interestingly, it only just occurred to me that they guy I am working with
is on his way back from a broken ankle and tibia - duh ! And DUH again !!!!

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:10:30 -0000, "Bully" <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok>
wrote:

>Ah ok !
>
>Interestingly, it only just occurred to me that they guy I am working with
>is on his way back from a broken ankle and tibia - duh ! And DUH again !!!!

I am pretty sure my problem stems from old injuries as well. I tried
the calve exercise at the gym. They where actually easiest to do
sitting on a flat surface and I agree about stretching for longer
times. They definitely released tension and will probably help with
calve raises. Then didn't help at all with squats.

When I bend my lower leg forward I feel paid on my left inside ankle.
I seemed to hit this best leaning against a wall with my foot
stretched back behind me. My left foot has a stopping point which is
painful. Maybe I can find a way to stretch it out some but I may need
to see a doctor. I have no problems with it in day to day life so a
doctor may not help.

When I think back I guess my left leg has taken a few beatings over
time. I took a slap shot to the ankle and another to the knee. And
I injured the knee again in a three wheeler accident. Each time the
area swelled up like grapefruit. I think it may have gotten worse
now that I am older.

Dnia 2006-11-03 Shute napisa³(a):
> On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:10:30 -0000, "Bully" <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok>
> wrote:
>
>>Ah ok !
>>
>>Interestingly, it only just occurred to me that they guy I am working with
>>is on his way back from a broken ankle and tibia - duh ! And DUH again !!!!
>
> I am pretty sure my problem stems from old injuries as well. I tried
> the calve exercise at the gym. They where actually easiest to do
> sitting on a flat surface and I agree about stretching for longer
> times. They definitely released tension and will probably help with
> calve raises. Then didn't help at all with squats.
>
> When I bend my lower leg forward I feel paid on my left inside ankle.
> I seemed to hit this best leaning against a wall with my foot
> stretched back behind me. My left foot has a stopping point which is
> painful. Maybe I can find a way to stretch it out some but I may need
> to see a doctor. I have no problems with it in day to day life so a
> doctor may not help.
>
> When I think back I guess my left leg has taken a few beatings over
> time. I took a slap shot to the ankle and another to the knee. And
> I injured the knee again in a three wheeler accident. Each time the
> area swelled up like grapefruit. I think it may have gotten worse
> now that I am older.

For what it may be worth - I dislocated my ankle last winter. I felt
mild pain in it during day to day activities for many months after
accident. Started doing stepups, pain's gone[1].

Hmm, I fixed my left shoulder with one-armed overhead squats, I fixed
my ankle with stepups. Yeah, I can testify that unilateral work is
totally useless "functional" crap. ;-)

1 - That was exactly what I predicted. People were telling me that I
may feel the effects of this dislocation for the rest of my life, and I
was pretty damn sure I'll fix it with no problems.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Shute wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:10:30 -0000, "Bully" <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok>
> wrote:
>
>> Ah ok !
>>
>> Interestingly, it only just occurred to me that they guy I am
>> working with is on his way back from a broken ankle and tibia - duh
>> ! And DUH again !!!!
>
> I am pretty sure my problem stems from old injuries as well. I tried
> the calve exercise at the gym. They where actually easiest to do
> sitting on a flat surface and I agree about stretching for longer
> times. They definitely released tension and will probably help with
> calve raises. Then didn't help at all with squats.
>
> When I bend my lower leg forward I feel paid on my left inside ankle.
> I seemed to hit this best leaning against a wall with my foot
> stretched back behind me. My left foot has a stopping point which is
> painful. Maybe I can find a way to stretch it out some but I may need
> to see a doctor. I have no problems with it in day to day life so a
> doctor may not help.
>
> When I think back I guess my left leg has taken a few beatings over
> time. I took a slap shot to the ankle and another to the knee. And
> I injured the knee again in a three wheeler accident. Each time the
> area swelled up like grapefruit. I think it may have gotten worse
> now that I am older.

I now have my subject doing PNF daily on his ankle using a thera-band. We'll
see if that helps with his squat. Althoguh I will measure the results over
weeks/months rather hours/days [get my poont ?]

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 22:39:37 -0000, "Bully" <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok>
wrote:

>I now have my subject doing PNF daily on his ankle using a thera-band. We'll
>see if that helps with his squat. Althoguh I will measure the results over
>weeks/months rather hours/days [get my poont ?]

I feel some tingling going on in my ankle foot and shin area tonight.
Perhaps there is some healing that needs to go with the stretching.

I had too look up PNF stretching. In doing so I ran across some
article saying stretching had better results after a workout then
before. They said the stretches where more efficient when the muscle
was warmed up. Have you heard that before?

On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 20:14:11 +0000 (UTC), Andrzej Rosa
<bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:

>For what it may be worth - I dislocated my ankle last winter. I felt
>mild pain in it during day to day activities for many months after
>accident. Started doing stepups, pain's gone[1].
>
>Hmm, I fixed my left shoulder with one-armed overhead squats, I fixed
>my ankle with stepups. Yeah, I can testify that unilateral work is
>totally useless "functional" crap. ;-)
>
>1 - That was exactly what I predicted. People were telling me that I
>may feel the effects of this dislocation for the rest of my life, and I
>was pretty damn sure I'll fix it with no problems.

Did you use weight during the step-ups? How frequent did you do them
and for how long?

I know I had noticed my ankle flexibility was poor before I started
working out again. I thought it would have improved. I guess nothing
except calve raises has anything to do with the ankle. I am
interested to try anything that works.

Dnia 2006-11-04 Shute napisa³(a):
> On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 20:14:11 +0000 (UTC), Andrzej Rosa
><bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>For what it may be worth - I dislocated my ankle last winter. I felt
>>mild pain in it during day to day activities for many months after
>>accident. Started doing stepups, pain's gone[1].
>>
>>Hmm, I fixed my left shoulder with one-armed overhead squats, I fixed
>>my ankle with stepups. Yeah, I can testify that unilateral work is
>>totally useless "functional" crap. ;-)
>>
>>1 - That was exactly what I predicted. People were telling me that I
>>may feel the effects of this dislocation for the rest of my life, and I
>>was pretty damn sure I'll fix it with no problems.
>
> Did you use weight during the step-ups? How frequent did you do them
> and for how long?

I started stepups maybe a month ago and with weights. Ankle was
good enough for that for quite a while, of course. I was just lazy,
because pain I sometimes felt was mild, so, well, I was lazy. ;-)

At the beginning stepups were a bit painful, but not so much that it
prevented me from doing them. Now everything is fine, as far as I can
tell. A bit of right stimulation obviously helped.

> I know I had noticed my ankle flexibility was poor before I started
> working out again. I thought it would have improved. I guess nothing
> except calve raises has anything to do with the ankle. I am
> interested to try anything that works.

To be honest, I do not expect that stepups will fix your problem. They
do not require much flexibility, but if you have a problem with
stability on top of flexibility issues, they might work fine. For calf
flexibility I'd recommend squatting. Like, you need to rest a little
between your sets, squat. Sissy squats, if you can't do flat footed
squats. Or one leg flat footed and other sissy squatting. It actually
helps with flexibility. For me it worked much better then stretching,
but you already know that I'm lazy, so I don't stretch often enough
and for long enough. And I remember that Dan John wrote somewhere,
that in his first gym they had a machine for ankle mobility. It was a
step on a staircase. Take a look around your gym, maybe they have this
machine? ;-)

Anyway, as long as you can squat, keep squatting. Over time your body
will adapt to new demands.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On Sat, 4 Nov 2006 02:09:43 +0000 (UTC), Andrzej Rosa
<bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:

>I started stepups maybe a month ago and with weights. Ankle was
>good enough for that for quite a while, of course. I was just lazy,
>because pain I sometimes felt was mild, so, well, I was lazy. ;-)
>
>At the beginning stepups were a bit painful, but not so much that it
>prevented me from doing them. Now everything is fine, as far as I can
>tell. A bit of right stimulation obviously helped.

In my case it isn't painful doing them without weight.

>To be honest, I do not expect that stepups will fix your problem. They
>do not require much flexibility, but if you have a problem with
>stability on top of flexibility issues, they might work fine. For calf
>flexibility I'd recommend squatting. Like, you need to rest a little
>between your sets, squat. Sissy squats, if you can't do flat footed
>squats. Or one leg flat footed and other sissy squatting. It actually
>helps with flexibility. For me it worked much better then stretching,
>but you already know that I'm lazy, so I don't stretch often enough
>and for long enough.