trying to overcome chronic ligaments weakness ?

I have lot of weak ligaments due to muscoskeletal problems that I
would like to try and address through exercises if possible.

Right now some things are plain out beacuse my ankle joints slip as
well as my groin though I have managed to improve a bit and am
starting to cycle when i can.

The main area right now want to try and strengthen then is the inner
thighs , groin and abs if possible..

Th arms back ( unless its lower ) dont bother me im quite strong
there , at least strong enough for my needs.

In any event I was looking at multigyms and wondered if there was any
good ones for these areas im looking at ( basically lower body )

Of the exercises Ive been looking at Im not som famliar with there are
some that look like they would really help but whether these sorts are
available in multi gym I dont know so I was going to list them here to
see what you guys think.

Sled hack squat
Seated Hip Abduction
Seated Hip Adduction
Lever Hip Flexion
Lever Seated Crunch
Lever Seated Hip Raise Crunch

thanks

matt

matt.tippen@gmail.com wrote:
> I have lot of weak ligaments due to muscoskeletal problems that I
> would like to try and address through exercises if possible.
>
> Right now some things are plain out beacuse my ankle joints slip as
> well as my groin though I have managed to improve a bit and am
> starting to cycle when i can.
>
> The main area right now want to try and strengthen then is the inner
> thighs , groin and abs if possible..
>
> Th arms back ( unless its lower ) dont bother me im quite strong
> there , at least strong enough for my needs.
>
> In any event I was looking at multigyms and wondered if there was any
> good ones for these areas im looking at ( basically lower body )
>
> Of the exercises Ive been looking at Im not som famliar with there are
> some that look like they would really help but whether these sorts are
> available in multi gym I dont know so I was going to list them here to
> see what you guys think.
>
> Sled hack squat
> Seated Hip Abduction
> Seated Hip Adduction
> Lever Hip Flexion
> Lever Seated Crunch
> Lever Seated Hip Raise Crunch
>
> thanks
>
> matt
>

You need to consult your doctor and make use of a qualified
physiotherapist who can help you strengthen the muscles around the
joints without exacerbating the ligament problems you already have.

Ari

--
spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply
Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant. Please
volunteer to be a marrow donor and literally save someone's life:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

<matt.tippen@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1181270295.153455.198510@n4g2000hsb.googlegro ups.com...
>I have lot of weak ligaments due to muscoskeletal problems that I
> would like to try and address through exercises if possible.
>
> Right now some things are plain out beacuse my ankle joints slip as
> well as my groin though I have managed to improve a bit and am
> starting to cycle when i can.
>
> The main area right now want to try and strengthen then is the inner
> thighs , groin and abs if possible..
>
> Th arms back ( unless its lower ) dont bother me im quite strong
> there , at least strong enough for my needs.
>
> In any event I was looking at multigyms and wondered if there was any
> good ones for these areas im looking at ( basically lower body )
>
> Of the exercises Ive been looking at Im not som famliar with there are
> some that look like they would really help but whether these sorts are
> available in multi gym I dont know so I was going to list them here to
> see what you guys think.
>
> Sled hack squat
> Seated Hip Abduction
> Seated Hip Adduction
> Lever Hip Flexion
> Lever Seated Crunch
> Lever Seated Hip Raise Crunch
>
> thanks
>
> matt

My memory of the research is that brief loading, of the kind often
encountered in explosive styles of lifting, is the most effective at
specifically strengthening connective tissue. You might consider
kettlebell swings or Olympic lifting or something else along those
lines - with your doctor's permission, of course, since it sounds like
you have other medical issues as well.

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

"Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote
> <matt.tippen@gmail.com> wrote
>>I have lot of weak ligaments due to muscoskeletal problems that I
>> would like to try and address through exercises if possible.
>
> My memory of the research is that brief loading, of the kind often
> encountered in explosive styles of lifting, is the most effective at
> specifically strengthening connective tissue. You might consider
> kettlebell swings

Steve, my left nut itches a lot. Can kettlebells help that, too?



David

"David Cohen" <sammiesdad@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:72fai.2227$tb6.975@newsread3.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> "Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote
>> <matt.tippen@gmail.com> wrote
>>>I have lot of weak ligaments due to muscoskeletal problems that I
>>> would like to try and address through exercises if possible.
>>
>> My memory of the research is that brief loading, of the kind often
>> encountered in explosive styles of lifting, is the most effective at
>> specifically strengthening connective tissue. You might consider
>> kettlebell swings
>
> Steve, my left nut itches a lot. Can kettlebells help that, too?
>
>

Possible retorts:

1. Yes.

2. No, but they can help with thick nipples.

3. Only the right one.

Take your pick - I'm about to do some snatches with an 80 lb. (36 kg.)
kettlebell, which will do its best to disconnect my connective tissue.
If I don't reply further, it's because my hands got ripped off my arms.


-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

In article <5ctdo0F2vq7brU1@mid.individual.net>,
"Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

> "David Cohen" <sammiesdad@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:72fai.2227$tb6.975@newsread3.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > "Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote
> >> <matt.tippen@gmail.com> wrote
> >>>I have lot of weak ligaments due to muscoskeletal problems that I
> >>> would like to try and address through exercises if possible.
> >>
> >> My memory of the research is that brief loading, of the kind often
> >> encountered in explosive styles of lifting, is the most effective at
> >> specifically strengthening connective tissue. You might consider
> >> kettlebell swings
> >
> > Steve, my left nut itches a lot. Can kettlebells help that, too?
> >
> >
>
> Possible retorts:
>
> 1. Yes.
>
> 2. No, but they can help with thick nipples.
>
> 3. Only the right one.
>
> Take your pick - I'm about to do some snatches with an 80 lb. (36 kg.)
> kettlebell, which will do its best to disconnect my connective tissue.
> If I don't reply further, it's because my hands got ripped off my arms.
>
>
> -S-
> http://www.kbnj.com
>
>
>

Actually I'd like to see that cite. I sure don't see explosive lifts
helping someone who appears to have joint instability and subluxation
issues.

The original poster said, "I have lot of weak ligaments due to
muscoskeletal problems that I would like to try and address through
exercises if possible.

Right now some things are plain out beacuse my ankle joints slip as
well as my groin though I have managed to improve a bit and am starting
to cycle when i can.

The main area right now want to try and strengthen then is the inner
thighs , groin and abs if possible.."

If the OP is having trouble cycling do you really think an expolosive
kettlebell swing is the prescription? I don't see it.

My advice to the original poster echoes Ari's. If at all possible go see
a good physiotherapist in conjunction with expert medical advice. If
not, I would suggest doing bodyweight movement exercises in as full of a
range of motion (ROM) as you can without risking the joint. You have to
use great care to ensure that you work the joint without irritating the
joint capsule through micro-subluxations of the joint. Over time you
want to increase the ROM.

At the same time you will be having proprioception issues and basic
muscle strength issues. Remember if you strengthen the muscles and
tendons around the joint they will help the ligaments keep the joint
functioning properly. For strength cycling and walking are both
excellent exercises at this stage if they can be tolerated.

I would look at a variety of ankle exercises. Start with simple things
like writing the alphabet with your toes. Progress to things like towel
of marble pick-ups (dorsiflexion), calve raises (plantarflexion) and
various unilateral stances (more on this in the legs and hips section).

For the knees and hips I would start with bodyweight squats, possibly
using a doorknob or chair to assist yourself. I might do leg side lifts
and rotations of the hip as well. Lunges, wide stance squats onto a box
or chair, walking lunges, etc. would round out my choices. For now.

As your joints get more stable you can work on strength and speed. The
order for working is to start with stability and then progess to
strength, endurance and speed. Steve's advice is good for a person
wanting to strengthen healthy ligaments. It is approaching dangerous for
a person in your position.

--
Keith

matt.tippen wrote:

I have lot of weak ligaments due to muscoskeletal problems that I
would like to try and address through exercises if possible.

I replied:

My memory of the research is that brief loading, of the kind often
encountered in explosive styles of lifting, is the most effective at
specifically strengthening connective tissue. You might consider
kettlebell swings or Olympic lifting or something else along those
lines - with your doctor's permission, of course, since it sounds like
you have other medical issues as well.

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

-snip-

Keith opined:

Actually I'd like to see that cite. I sure don't see explosive lifts
helping someone who appears to have joint instability and subluxation
issues.

-snip-

As your joints get more stable you can work on strength and speed. The
order for working is to start with stability and then progess to
strength, endurance and speed. Steve's advice is good for a person
wanting to strengthen healthy ligaments. It is approaching dangerous for
a person in your position.

I retort:

This is why we pay you the big bucks, Keith. And why I included
"with your doctor's permission" in my original reply.

Whether or not his problems require a more remedial course of treatment
than the one I mentioned is something the OP's doctor and/or physical
therapist needs to decide, not you or me over the Internet. Subluxation
isn't a word I find in the OP's message although I agree it's a
reasonable reading of what he wrote - "joints slip" - but we really
don't know to what degree. Right after that he says he's "managed to
improve a bit" is has started cycling, so it's also not unreasonable to
assume he can at least consider, if not tomorrow, then perhaps in the
not too distant future, some slightly more vigorous forms of exercises.

As they say, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. But, all
other things being equal, I say to our OP - listen to Keith when he
disagrees with me because he knows a lot more and is a lot stronger,
too.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

In article <5cth1kF30g8j1U1@mid.individual.net>,
"Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

> matt.tippen wrote:
>
> I have lot of weak ligaments due to muscoskeletal problems that I
> would like to try and address through exercises if possible.
>
> I replied:
>
> My memory of the research is that brief loading, of the kind often
> encountered in explosive styles of lifting, is the most effective at
> specifically strengthening connective tissue. You might consider
> kettlebell swings or Olympic lifting or something else along those
> lines - with your doctor's permission, of course, since it sounds like
> you have other medical issues as well.
>
> Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.
>
> -snip-
>
> Keith opined:
>
> Actually I'd like to see that cite. I sure don't see explosive lifts
> helping someone who appears to have joint instability and subluxation
> issues.
>
> -snip-
>
> As your joints get more stable you can work on strength and speed. The
> order for working is to start with stability and then progess to
> strength, endurance and speed. Steve's advice is good for a person
> wanting to strengthen healthy ligaments. It is approaching dangerous for
> a person in your position.
>
> I retort:
>
> This is why we pay you the big bucks, Keith. And why I included
> "with your doctor's permission" in my original reply.
>
> Whether or not his problems require a more remedial course of treatment
> than the one I mentioned is something the OP's doctor and/or physical
> therapist needs to decide, not you or me over the Internet. Subluxation
> isn't a word I find in the OP's message although I agree it's a
> reasonable reading of what he wrote - "joints slip" - but we really
> don't know to what degree. Right after that he says he's "managed to
> improve a bit" is has started cycling, so it's also not unreasonable to
> assume he can at least consider, if not tomorrow, then perhaps in the
> not too distant future, some slightly more vigorous forms of exercises.
>
> As they say, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. But, all
> other things being equal, I say to our OP - listen to Keith when he
> disagrees with me because he knows a lot more and is a lot stronger,
> too.


Joint slippage is subluxation. If it accurs (outside of some normal ROM)
almost invariably joint capsule inflammation and/or bursitis will occur
- painful stuff. So I think if you are looking at a person with chronic
issues a doctor and physio is the best bet, as I agreed with Ari on.

If that is not available, then I think also think listen to Keith if he
disagrees with Steve. :^| So I agree with Steve not to listen to Steve
if Keith disagrees.

:^)

Seriously, I wonder what the chance of having a medical doctor agree to
swings and olympic lifts is - for anyone. Most doctors know absolutely
nothing about exercise - really - and are scared by ballistic movement.

You gave advice which i suspect practically every doctor would disagree
with for a healthy person, Steve. We both know there is a lot to be said
for ballistic movement, but I wonder how many doctors would agree?

--
Keith

On 8 Jun, 17:47, Hobbes <khobman...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In article <5ctdo0F2vq7b...@mid.individual.net>,
> "Steve Freides" <s...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "David Cohen" <sammies...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> >news:72fai.2227$tb6.975@newsread3.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > "Steve Freides" <s...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote
> > >> <matt.tip...@gmail.com> wrote
> > >>>I have lot of weak ligaments due to muscoskeletal problems that I
> > >>> would like to try and address through exercises if possible.
>
> > >> My memory of the research is that brief loading, of the kind often
> > >> encountered in explosive styles of lifting, is the most effective at
> > >> specifically strengthening connective tissue. You might consider
> > >> kettlebell swings
>
> > > Steve, my left nut itches a lot. Can kettlebells help that, too?
>
> > >
>
> > Possible retorts:
>
> > 1. Yes.
>
> > 2. No, but they can help with thick nipples.
>
> > 3. Only the right one.
>
> > Take your pick - I'm about to do some snatches with an 80 lb. (36 kg.)
> > kettlebell, which will do its best to disconnect my connective tissue.
> > If I don't reply further, it's because my hands got ripped off my arms.
> >
>
> > -S-
> >http://www.kbnj.com
>
> Actually I'd like to see that cite. I sure don't see explosive lifts
> helping someone who appears to have joint instability and subluxation
> issues.
>
> The original poster said, "I have lot of weak ligaments due to
> muscoskeletal problems that I would like to try and address through
> exercises if possible.
>
> Right now some things are plain out beacuse my ankle joints slip as
> well as my groin though I have managed to improve a bit and am starting
> to cycle when i can.
>
> The main area right now want to try and strengthen then is the inner
> thighs , groin and abs if possible.."
>
> If the OP is having trouble cycling do you really think an expolosive
> kettlebell swing is the prescription? I don't see it.
>
> My advice to the original poster echoes Ari's. If at all possible go see
> a good physiotherapist in conjunction with expert medical advice. If
> not, I would suggest doing bodyweight movement exercises in as full of a
> range of motion (ROM) as you can without risking the joint. You have to
> use great care to ensure that you work the joint without irritating the
> joint capsule through micro-subluxations of the joint. Over time you
> want to increase the ROM.
>
> At the same time you will be having proprioception issues and basic
> muscle strength issues. Remember if you strengthen the muscles and
> tendons around the joint they will help the ligaments keep the joint
> functioning properly. For strength cycling and walking are both
> excellent exercises at this stage if they can be tolerated.
>
> I would look at a variety of ankle exercises. Start with simple things
> like writing the alphabet with your toes. Progress to things like towel
> of marble pick-ups (dorsiflexion), calve raises (plantarflexion) and
> various unilateral stances (more on this in the legs and hips section).
>
> For the knees and hips I would start with bodyweight squats, possibly
> using a doorknob or chair to assist yourself. I might do leg side lifts
> and rotations of the hip as well. Lunges, wide stance squats onto a box
> or chair, walking lunges, etc. would round out my choices. For now.
>
> As your joints get more stable you can work on strength and speed. The
> order for working is to start with stability and then progess to
> strength, endurance and speed. Steve's advice is good for a person
> wanting to strengthen healthy ligaments. It is approaching dangerous for
> a person in your position.
>
> --
> Keith

Keith,

i have been dealing with joint problems now for 18 yrs so I've already
been doing a lot of what you suggested .

A lot of conventional stuff sometimes is even to harsh though there
are areas that seem like they would benefit from freeweights.

Believe it or not I even have issue with my skull that affects and
gets affected by my body .

Something else i was thinking of was pool work - you know weights in
that enviroment, what do yout think about that ?

I have managed to get my body better through getting Prolotherapy
injections to help weak areas but as you say tendon / muscle would
help .

Is there anything at all , any way that can help make ligaments
stronger or less " stretched " your aware of i.e. ( steriods et c ) ?

proprioception using isometric stretched / bands have helped but I
was hoping there might be somethign else perhaps .

thanks

matt

In article <1181329182.955079.265770@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups .com>,
matt.tippen@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Keith,
>
> i have been dealing with joint problems now for 18 yrs so I've already
> been doing a lot of what you suggested .
>
> A lot of conventional stuff sometimes is even to harsh though there
> are areas that seem like they would benefit from freeweights.
>
> Believe it or not I even have issue with my skull that affects and
> gets affected by my body .
>
> Something else i was thinking of was pool work - you know weights in
> that enviroment, what do yout think about that ?
>
> I have managed to get my body better through getting Prolotherapy
> injections to help weak areas but as you say tendon / muscle would
> help .
>
> Is there anything at all , any way that can help make ligaments
> stronger or less " stretched " your aware of i.e. ( steriods et c ) ?
>
> proprioception using isometric stretched / bands have helped but I
> was hoping there might be somethign else perhaps .
>

Steroids won't increase ligament strength AFAIK. I'm involved primarily
with athletes, so steroids aren't something I know anything about. (Our
athletes in this neck of the woods tend to be clean.)

I'd seriously consider yoga or 'power' yoga. I like the idea of water
training as well, but you'd have to be careful of the exercise selection.

It goes against conventional wisdom, but you should consider dynamic
short range plyometrics (which actually agrees with Steve's
recommendation somewhat and I think is what the cite he is referring to
addresses). The key to this is little resistance and short range of
movement (which disagrees with Steve's recommendation). Lisa
Siff-Ericson pioneered this type of training for wheelchair people, but
you would have to adapt it to your own training by giving it a lowerbody
emphasis. AFAIK this has never been done - it would be an interesting
exercise variation.

If you go to Yahoo groups and join 'Supertraining' there is a file
showing a seated workout by Lisa - you'll get the idea pretty quick. The
key would be to work in your ROM.

--
Keith

"Hobbes" <khobman800@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:khobman800-83E8AA.12482508062007@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> In article <5cth1kF30g8j1U1@mid.individual.net>,
> "Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
>> matt.tippen wrote:
>>
>> I have lot of weak ligaments due to muscoskeletal problems that I
>> would like to try and address through exercises if possible.
>>
>> I replied:
>>
>> My memory of the research is that brief loading, of the kind often
>> encountered in explosive styles of lifting, is the most effective at
>> specifically strengthening connective tissue. You might consider
>> kettlebell swings or Olympic lifting or something else along those
>> lines - with your doctor's permission, of course, since it sounds like
>> you have other medical issues as well.
>>
>> Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.
>>
>> -snip-
>>
>> Keith opined:
>>
>> Actually I'd like to see that cite. I sure don't see explosive lifts
>> helping someone who appears to have joint instability and subluxation
>> issues.
>>
>> -snip-
>>
>> As your joints get more stable you can work on strength and speed. The
>> order for working is to start with stability and then progess to
>> strength, endurance and speed. Steve's advice is good for a person
>> wanting to strengthen healthy ligaments. It is approaching dangerous for
>> a person in your position.
>>
>> I retort:
>>
>> This is why we pay you the big bucks, Keith. And why I included
>> "with your doctor's permission" in my original reply.
>>
>> Whether or not his problems require a more remedial course of treatment
>> than the one I mentioned is something the OP's doctor and/or physical
>> therapist needs to decide, not you or me over the Internet. Subluxation
>> isn't a word I find in the OP's message although I agree it's a
>> reasonable reading of what he wrote - "joints slip" - but we really
>> don't know to what degree. Right after that he says he's "managed to
>> improve a bit" is has started cycling, so it's also not unreasonable to
>> assume he can at least consider, if not tomorrow, then perhaps in the
>> not too distant future, some slightly more vigorous forms of exercises.
>>
>> As they say, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. But, all
>> other things being equal, I say to our OP - listen to Keith when he
>> disagrees with me because he knows a lot more and is a lot stronger,
>> too.
>
>
> Joint slippage is subluxation. If it accurs (outside of some normal ROM)
> almost invariably joint capsule inflammation and/or bursitis will occur
> - painful stuff. So I think if you are looking at a person with chronic
> issues a doctor and physio is the best bet, as I agreed with Ari on.
>
> If that is not available, then I think also think listen to Keith if he
> disagrees with Steve. :^| So I agree with Steve not to listen to Steve
> if Keith disagrees.
>
> :^)
>
> Seriously, I wonder what the chance of having a medical doctor agree to
> swings and olympic lifts is - for anyone. Most doctors know absolutely
> nothing about exercise - really - and are scared by ballistic movement.
>
> You gave advice which i suspect practically every doctor would disagree
> with for a healthy person, Steve. We both know there is a lot to be said
> for ballistic movement, but I wonder how many doctors would agree?

Part of the reason I do as well as I do, with my injury history, is because
I found a good back doctor. He encouraged me to exercise in any way I felt
I could tolerate. Whether or not his treatment of me was because he saw how
well I did in the initial stages of physical therapy (I showed enough
knowledge of my injury and myself that, after my third visit out of a
planned 12, the PT told me that he knew I knew what to do, and not to come
back unless something went wrong, which it didn't) or whether he's like that
with everyone, I couldn't tell you, but I can tell you he had no problem
with me doing anything, including lifting weights.

There's a wonderful quote which I don't remember exactly, but the idea was
that if you train in ordinary ways, you get ordinary results, and if you
want extraordinary results, you need to be prepared to train in
extraordinary, and unconventional if that's what it takes, ways. I swung an
80 lb. kettlebell today, snatches as 2 left plus 2 right on the :60 for 16
minutes. The thing comes flying down from overhead, and many of even the
DragonDoor folks who are a lot bigger and a lot younger than me lower to
their shoulder first instead. What can I tell you? I am here to say that,
assuming ballistic motion in some form is bearable, it is a course of action
worthy of consideration for our OP. Very few things have been shown to
strengthen connective tissue, e.g., lifters usually just tell you to go
heavier gradually so your connective tissue will "catch up with your
muscles." Ballistic work could be the ticket for our OP. I prefer to make
my recommendations and trust his good judgement rather than not saying
anything at all.

As to the finer points like dymanic short range ply work instead of
kettlebell swings or Olympic lifts, well, that's why I keep you around.

[grinning, ducking and running]

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


>
> --
> Keith