A week off or shorten the workout?

Thoughts please.

About a month ago I basically doubled the amount of sets of my
workout, I wasn't getting results as it was and am pleased to say I am
now. BUT, yesterday doing bench presses my right arm had a shot of
pain in the shoulder run through it about halfway through the sets. I
finished the wo but lifted slowly to get a feel for any damage, it
wasn't too bad I figured. A few hours later at the dojo doing warm up
kata and the sort I felt that shot of pain in the shoulder again. I
only work out the same parts twice a week and don't know if I should
take a break or lighten the load temporarily, or keep the same load
and shorten the sets. Recommendations from this distinguished group
are appreciated.
-GJ

On Jun 3, 6:43 pm, geminijackso...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Thoughts please.
>
> About a month ago I basically doubled the amount of sets of my
> workout, I wasn't getting results as it was and am pleased to say I am
> now. BUT, yesterday doing bench presses my right arm had a shot of
> pain in the shoulder run through it about halfway through the sets. I
> finished the wo but lifted slowly to get a feel for any damage, it
> wasn't too bad I figured. A few hours later at the dojo doing warm up
> kata and the sort I felt that shot of pain in the shoulder again. I
> only work out the same parts twice a week and don't know if I should
> take a break or lighten the load temporarily, or keep the same load
> and shorten the sets. Recommendations from this distinguished group
> are appreciated.
> -GJ

Take a rest. I injured my shoulder about 4 years ago, doing weight
training and kick-boxing, and ignoring the pain. My right arm is still
relatively weak. I feat I will never be as strong again. Take a rest,
heal, then return to your workouts.
Consider seeing a physio too.

Cheers

Jon.
http://www.motleyhealth.com/

Dnia 2008-06-03 geminijacksonis@yahoo.com napisa³(a):
> Thoughts please.
>
> About a month ago I basically doubled the amount of sets of my
> workout, I wasn't getting results as it was and am pleased to say I am
> now. BUT, yesterday doing bench presses my right arm had a shot of
> pain in the shoulder run through it about halfway through the sets.

Bad news.

> I
> finished the wo but lifted slowly to get a feel for any damage, it
> wasn't too bad I figured. A few hours later at the dojo doing warm up
> kata and the sort I felt that shot of pain in the shoulder again. I
> only work out the same parts twice a week and don't know if I should
> take a break or lighten the load temporarily, or keep the same load
> and shorten the sets. Recommendations from this distinguished group
> are appreciated.

Stop benching. Take your time and work on strengthening shoulder
stabilizing muscles and shoulder mobility. I'd write what to do, but I
don't suppose you will listen (I know I didn't), so I'll wait until you
ask.

If that is not acceptable, learn how to bench. I know you think you can
bench, but bench is actually quite difficult lift to learn. You should
use a lot of arch, touch quite low, grip quite narrow, elbows close to
the body and try to "tear the bar apart". Flat bench should feel way
more like decline bench than incline bench.

For now I'd advise concentrating on barbell rows, cable rows and not
benching for several weeks at all. Pec dec may be fine, cable
crossovers may be fine, decline flies may be OK. I don't know, go by
feel. It's your body and you know it best.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:10:12 +0200, Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Dnia 2008-06-03 geminijacksonis@yahoo.com napisa?(a):
>> Thoughts please.
>>
>> About a month ago I basically doubled the amount of sets of my
>> workout, I wasn't getting results as it was and am pleased to say I am
>> now. BUT, yesterday doing bench presses my right arm had a shot of
>> pain in the shoulder run through it about halfway through the sets.
>
>Bad news.
>
>> I
>> finished the wo but lifted slowly to get a feel for any damage, it
>> wasn't too bad I figured. A few hours later at the dojo doing warm up
>> kata and the sort I felt that shot of pain in the shoulder again. I
>> only work out the same parts twice a week and don't know if I should
>> take a break or lighten the load temporarily, or keep the same load
>> and shorten the sets. Recommendations from this distinguished group
>> are appreciated.
>
>Stop benching. Take your time and work on strengthening shoulder
>stabilizing muscles and shoulder mobility. I'd write what to do, but I
>don't suppose you will listen (I know I didn't), so I'll wait until you
>ask.

Would squats and DL's cover this?

>
>If that is not acceptable, learn how to bench. I know you think you can
>bench, but bench is actually quite difficult lift to learn. You should
>use a lot of arch, touch quite low, grip quite narrow, elbows close to
>the body and try to "tear the bar apart". Flat bench should feel way
>more like decline bench than incline bench.
>
>For now I'd advise concentrating on barbell rows, cable rows and not
>benching for several weeks at all. Pec dec may be fine, cable
>crossovers may be fine, decline flies may be OK. I don't know, go by
>feel. It's your body and you know it best.

Good reasonable advice. Thanks.
~GJ~

Dnia 2008-06-04 Gemini Jackson napisa³(a):
> On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:10:12 +0200, Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> I
>>> finished the wo but lifted slowly to get a feel for any damage, it
>>> wasn't too bad I figured. A few hours later at the dojo doing warm up
>>> kata and the sort I felt that shot of pain in the shoulder again. I
>>> only work out the same parts twice a week and don't know if I should
>>> take a break or lighten the load temporarily, or keep the same load
>>> and shorten the sets. Recommendations from this distinguished group
>>> are appreciated.
>>
>>Stop benching. Take your time and work on strengthening shoulder
>>stabilizing muscles and shoulder mobility. I'd write what to do, but I
>>don't suppose you will listen (I know I didn't), so I'll wait until you
>>ask.
>
> Would squats and DL's cover this?

Not really. My belief is that big part of your problem is muscular
imbalance around your shoulder girdle, which means that you need to
strengthen the muscles which pull your humerus back. Also you probably
need to strengthen your rotator cuff muscles. Beside that you probably
need mobility work. I tried all of that separately, and it doesn't
work very well while used this way. All of that together seems to do
the job. I'm not theorizing about whys and wherefores, just saying what
seems to keep my shoulder working.

For developing better muscular balance you need plenty of rows, and at
least I need pullups and one-armed snatches. Kettlebell swing will do,
but I hate kettlebells, so let's pretend I never wrote it. ;-) For
strengthening your rotator cuff muscles I like holding heavy loads
overhead. Easy to use and fairly effective exercise is "waiter walk".
You grab a heavy dumbbell, get it overhead somehow and walk around for
time or distance. For mobility I like one-armed overhead squats, which
you most probably can't do, but they work. There are tricks with rubber
band which can help your strength and mobility. Oh, plenty of things
which you can do. But I'd start with basic rows and swings/snatches plus
some mobility work and see if it does the trick.

[...]
--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:57:26 +0200, Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Dnia 2008-06-04 Gemini Jackson napisa?(a):
>> On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:10:12 +0200, Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> I
>>>> finished the wo but lifted slowly to get a feel for any damage, it
>>>> wasn't too bad I figured. A few hours later at the dojo doing warm up
>>>> kata and the sort I felt that shot of pain in the shoulder again. I
>>>> only work out the same parts twice a week and don't know if I should
>>>> take a break or lighten the load temporarily, or keep the same load
>>>> and shorten the sets. Recommendations from this distinguished group
>>>> are appreciated.
>>>
>>>Stop benching. Take your time and work on strengthening shoulder
>>>stabilizing muscles and shoulder mobility. I'd write what to do, but I
>>>don't suppose you will listen (I know I didn't), so I'll wait until you
>>>ask.
>>
>> Would squats and DL's cover this?
>
>Not really. My belief is that big part of your problem is muscular
>imbalance around your shoulder girdle, which means that you need to
>strengthen the muscles which pull your humerus back. Also you probably
>need to strengthen your rotator cuff muscles. Beside that you probably
>need mobility work. I tried all of that separately, and it doesn't
>work very well while used this way. All of that together seems to do
>the job. I'm not theorizing about whys and wherefores, just saying what
>seems to keep my shoulder working.
>
>For developing better muscular balance you need plenty of rows, and at
>least I need pullups and one-armed snatches. Kettlebell swing will do,
>but I hate kettlebells, so let's pretend I never wrote it. ;-) For
>strengthening your rotator cuff muscles I like holding heavy loads
>overhead. Easy to use and fairly effective exercise is "waiter walk".
>You grab a heavy dumbbell, get it overhead somehow and walk around for
>time or distance. For mobility I like one-armed overhead squats, which
>you most probably can't do, but they work. There are tricks with rubber
>band which can help your strength and mobility. Oh, plenty of things
>which you can do. But I'd start with basic rows and swings/snatches plus
>some mobility work and see if it does the trick.
>
>[...]

Rows it is then. Haven't done those in a while.
~GJ~

Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> writes:

> Dnia 2008-06-04 Gemini Jackson napisa³(a):
>> On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:10:12 +0200, Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> I
>>>> finished the wo but lifted slowly to get a feel for any damage, it
>>>> wasn't too bad I figured. A few hours later at the dojo doing warm up
>>>> kata and the sort I felt that shot of pain in the shoulder again. I
>>>> only work out the same parts twice a week and don't know if I should
>>>> take a break or lighten the load temporarily, or keep the same load
>>>> and shorten the sets. Recommendations from this distinguished group
>>>> are appreciated.
>>>
>>>Stop benching. Take your time and work on strengthening shoulder
>>>stabilizing muscles and shoulder mobility. I'd write what to do, but I
>>>don't suppose you will listen (I know I didn't), so I'll wait until you
>>>ask.
>>
>> Would squats and DL's cover this?
>
> Not really. My belief is that big part of your problem is muscular
> imbalance around your shoulder girdle, which means that you need to
> strengthen the muscles which pull your humerus back. Also you probably
> need to strengthen your rotator cuff muscles. Beside that you probably
> need mobility work. I tried all of that separately, and it doesn't
> work very well while used this way. All of that together seems to do
> the job. I'm not theorizing about whys and wherefores, just saying what
> seems to keep my shoulder working.
>
> For developing better muscular balance you need plenty of rows, and at
> least I need pullups and one-armed snatches. Kettlebell swing will do,
> but I hate kettlebells, so let's pretend I never wrote it. ;-) For
> strengthening your rotator cuff muscles I like holding heavy loads
> overhead. Easy to use and fairly effective exercise is "waiter walk".
> You grab a heavy dumbbell, get it overhead somehow and walk around for
> time or distance. For mobility I like one-armed overhead squats, which
> you most probably can't do, but they work. There are tricks with rubber
> band which can help your strength and mobility. Oh, plenty of things
> which you can do. But I'd start with basic rows and swings/snatches plus
> some mobility work and see if it does the trick.

I haven't tried these, but there are some interesting shoulder
exercises at

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/ss29.htm

I'm back to doing pullups, BTW. The elbow is much better.

--
Jim Janney

Dnia 2008-06-05 Jim Janney napisa³(a):
[...]
> I haven't tried these, but there are some interesting shoulder
> exercises at
>
> http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/ss29.htm

"The kettlebell is our tool of choice. Due to it's displaced center of
gravity the weight of the kettlebell draws your upper arm to the rear,
increasing the demands placed on the range of motion and your extreme
range strength."

They got it all backward. Due to displaced center of gravity, your arm
must lean a bit forward for the kettlebell to be exactly over your
shoulder, so using a kettlebell lowers the demands on the required range
of motion. In practice it makes no difference, but they got it wrong.
Good exercises, though.

> I'm back to doing pullups, BTW. The elbow is much better.

Me too. I'm still a bit cautious, but I'll probably be back soon. "Good
job" to both of us. ;-)

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On Jun 3, 1:43 pm, geminijackso...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Thoughts please.

Hmmm. Generally, we're a thoughtless bunch. You might be out of luck
in your request.

> About a month ago I basically doubled the amount of sets of my
> workout, I wasn't getting results as it was and am pleased to say I am
> now. <snip>

I enjoy high volume because, hey, I love the gym, but I've been
completing a low volume workout simply to shake things up and try a
new plan. If high volume is working for you then who am I to argue?
And I wouldn't argue anyway - variety is a key component in
maintaining gains or at least enthusiasm for working out. Kudos.

Snipped the gist of your post as Andrzej covered things. Best of luck
in your recuperation. I'd definitely seen your family doctor and/or
orthopedic surgeon for a consult, MRI, therapy (or surgery if
necessary), etc.

--

In article
<730f5af6-0d92-4b33-9730-3ddb72d56bcb@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
Curt <curtjames@gmail.com> wrote:

> variety is a key component in
> maintaining gains or at least enthusiasm for working out.


Agreed...
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people
until they put their foot down." -- Stephan Rothstein

On Jun 6, 5:27 am, Curt <curtja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 3, 1:43 pm, geminijackso...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Thoughts please.
>
> Hmmm. Generally, we're a thoughtless bunch. You might be out of luck
> in your request.

I know, I've been lurking for years.

>
> > About a month ago I basically doubled the amount of sets of my
> > workout, I wasn't getting results as it was and am pleased to say I am
> > now. <snip>
>
> I enjoy high volume because, hey, I love the gym, but I've been
> completing a low volume workout simply to shake things up and try a
> new plan. If high volume is working for you then who am I to argue?
> And I wouldn't argue anyway - variety is a key component in
> maintaining gains or at least enthusiasm for working out. Kudos.

I hate the gym, but I love the garage. I can wear rags without the
burden of being presentable.

>
> Snipped the gist of your post as Andrzej covered things. Best of luck
> in your recuperation. I'd definitely seen your family doctor and/or
> orthopedic surgeon for a consult, MRI, therapy (or surgery if
> necessary), etc.

Family doctor? What's that? I'm back to dial-up and gassing up $20
at a time.

I did the rows yesterday instead of my usual benching. Found out that
it's a bit much for me to do curls and rows in the same wo, but other
than a bit of soreness (I did 10 sets of 8 per side) I feel good. I
suspect this may help with giving me a quick snap to my punches in the
dojo.

The major 'wow gold' (http://www.wow-powerleveling-wow.com/)
presidential hopeful spent some time talking 'wow gold'
(http://www.wow-powerleveling-wow.com/gold.asp)about the 'wow power
leveling' (http://www.powerleveling-wow.com/siteMap.asp) economy today.
Republican John McCain told small business 'wow power leveling'
(http://www.powerleveling-wow.com/) owners in Washington DC his ideas
will be better for them. 'wow power leveling'
(http://www.powerleveling-wowgold.com/)NPR's Scott Horsley
reports.weiwei1978123




--
weiwei

Well for what it is worth since I am the new guy in this group I
would like to add my two cents...
I totally agree with Andrzej especially when it comes to what he
said about ..,strengthening your stabilizer muscles in your shoulders. I
alternate on a weekly basis between barbell and dumb bells when it comes
to my chest...you wouldnt believe how quickly you can move up in weight
when you do so...As Andrzej stated the bence press is one of the hardest
moves to perfect...most people think it is just laying down and moving
the bar up and down...they couldnt be more wrong...One of my favorite
body builders...Milos Sarcev has excellent DVD's for sale on proper
form...it you wish or you can watch some of his videos at the
bodybuilding.com site...when you get in the site look at the left bar
and click on "fit show" you will see that he has many shows listed along
with a lot of other professional body builders...He promotes a great way
of working out called Giant Progressive Sets and they are tremendous.
Myself and my workout partner have been doing those for almost a year
now and I can tell you they work...at least for us...they arent for
everyone...

sorry sorry...got off the subject...

Anyways, take it real easy for awhile with your bench...if you feel
the need to do it...use dumb bells with a weight you know you can handle
and if you feel any pain stop and use a lighter weight...

Always remember to keep your shoulders locked when benching...what
I mean by that is to keep your shoulder muscles tight...the quickest way
to a shoulder injury while benching is to allow your shoulders to
relax...

Also if you are doing any type of military press especially behind
the head stop that also...they are one of if not the most damaging
exercises for the shoulders...

One quick way to find out if you did any damage to your shoulder is
to stand in front of a door and grab the door knob with your hand,
loosen your shoulder muscles and just let your arm hang...then slowly
push and pull on the doorknob...if it feels like your arm is going to
come out of the socket when you pull or feel any pain when you push I
suggest you go see your doctor...you may have torn something in your
joint...

Dnia 2008-06-14 Dream Shadow napisa³(a):
[...]
> Also if you are doing any type of military press especially behind
> the head stop that also...they are one of if not the most damaging
> exercises for the shoulders...

I agree, that in case someone needs to lower loads on shoulders it's a
good idea to throw away an exercise which uses them so much as a
military press, but it doesn't mean that military press is any worse
than bench press. Actually I believe that it is much better. People
who bench too much have often problems with it, that's true, but is
military press the culprit or bench press? I believe that it will be
bench press and lack of basic mobility which often results from a lot of
benching.

I mean, powerlifters who transfer into strongmen often say that putting
emphasize on overhead pressing instead of benching gave them healthier
shoulders. Hobbes went into Oly lifting from powerlifting, and I
believe also thinks that it helped his battered shoulders. I can't do
pushups, but I can do behind the neck presses fine. Actually I do this
kind of exercise several times a week and the state of my iffy shoulder
steadily improves.

Use it or lose it. If you never use some range of motion, you probably
do not have it already.

> One quick way to find out if you did any damage to your shoulder is
> to stand in front of a door and grab the door knob with your hand,
> loosen your shoulder muscles and just let your arm hang...then slowly
> push and pull on the doorknob...if it feels like your arm is going to
> come out of the socket when you pull or feel any pain when you push I
> suggest you go see your doctor...you may have torn something in your
> joint...

Do you guys have doctors who actually can help in such a situation or
you all just try to be positive? I know that if I damage something
during training I'm practically on my own, because any doctor I have
access to will know even less that I know, and be definitely less
motivated to learn what to do to fix it.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

I have totally given up doing behind the head military press movements,
due to the pain I feel when I go any higher than 185, so for me since I
love to lift heavy I just forget it about it and move on to the other
exercises. Now I do standing military press all the time and Arnolds
press movement which is a killer shoulder exercise that will just put
your delts (front and mid) into the atmosphere...

I have a friend who is a sports doctor so if I hurt myself I always go
to him other than that I have really learned to educate myself...as I am
sure you know when it comes to bodybuilding you have to have a "good"
idea of the human anatomy when it comes to muscles, connective tissue
and joints...what is the point of going to my PCP just to pay a copay
and have him tell me to go see a specialist...???? ha ha ha

Dnia 2008-06-18 Dream Shadow napisa³(a):
> I have totally given up doing behind the head military press movements,
> due to the pain I feel when I go any higher than 185, so for me since I
> love to lift heavy I just forget it about it and move on to the other
> exercises. Now I do standing military press all the time and Arnolds
> press movement which is a killer shoulder exercise that will just put
> your delts (front and mid) into the atmosphere...
>
> I have a friend who is a sports doctor so if I hurt myself I always go
> to him other than that I have really learned to educate myself...as I am
> sure you know when it comes to bodybuilding you have to have a "good"
> idea of the human anatomy when it comes to muscles, connective tissue
> and joints...what is the point of going to my PCP just to pay a copay
> and have him tell me to go see a specialist...???? ha ha ha

You obviously know what you are doing, and I'm not contesting that
knowledge. Just pointing out, that behind the neck presses aren't bad
in general, but more in particular. If somebody has developed the range
of motion needed for them, they are fine or even helpful.

When it comes to doctors, here (Poland) your first contact doctor will
tell you to lay off and fuck off. In case it won't work, they give you
some voo doo type of massages, ultrasound treatment or similar. It
rarely does anything good beside enforcing some rest for people with
work related injuries.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On Jun 14, 1:50 am, Dream_Shad...@webtv.net (Dream Shadow) wrote:
> Well for what it is worth since I am the new guy in this group I
> would like to add my two cents...
> I totally agree with Andrzej especially when it comes to what he
> said about ..,strengthening your stabilizer muscles in your shoulders. I
> alternate on a weekly basis between barbell and dumb bells when it comes
> to my chest...you wouldnt believe how quickly you can move up in weight
> when you do so...As Andrzej stated the bence press is one of the hardest
> moves to perfect...most people think it is just laying down and moving
> the bar up and down...they couldnt be more wrong...One of my favorite
> body builders...Milos Sarcev has excellent DVD's for sale on proper
> form...it you wish or you can watch some of his videos at the
> bodybuilding.com site...when you get in the site look at the left bar
> and click on "fit show" you will see that he has many shows listed along
> with a lot of other professional body builders...He promotes a great way
> of working out called Giant Progressive Sets and they are tremendous.
> Myself and my workout partner have been doing those for almost a year
> now and I can tell you they work...at least for us...they arent for
> everyone...
>
> sorry sorry...got off the subject...
>
> Anyways, take it real easy for awhile with your bench...if you feel
> the need to do it...use dumb bells with a weight you know you can handle
> and if you feel any pain stop and use a lighter weight...
>
> Always remember to keep your shoulders locked when benching...what
> I mean by that is to keep your shoulder muscles tight...the quickest way
> to a shoulder injury while benching is to allow your shoulders to
> relax...
>
> Also if you are doing any type of military press especially behind
> the head stop that also...they are one of if not the most damaging
> exercises for the shoulders...
>
> One quick way to find out if you did any damage to your shoulder is
> to stand in front of a door and grab the door knob with your hand,
> loosen your shoulder muscles and just let your arm hang...then slowly
> push and pull on the doorknob...if it feels like your arm is going to
> come out of the socket when you pull or feel any pain when you push I
> suggest you go see your doctor...you may have torn something in your
> joint...

Joint seems ok this time. I did that kind of damage to it years back
and it was at least 2 years before I could bench again. I have a bad
habit of getting ahead of myself and lifting too much. I focus on
form a lot more these days. Thanks for the detailed and knowledgeable
response. I (literally) can't afford injuries.
-GJ