why do football players do power cleans?

does doing power cleans translate into better on-the-field performance?
or do you simply get better at doing power cleans?


After all, one rule of thumb is that you get good at what you do... as
in, you bench press, you get good at bench press -- does not mean
you'll throw a football 15 yards farther thanyou did before you started.

x...@hotmail.com wrote:

> does doing power cleans translate into better
> on-the-field performance?

According to Bill Hrabak, yes.

See also:
http://www.ohsfca.org/to_clean_or_not_to_clean.htm

Ditto Lyn Jones.

"Strength is an important part of most sports but few sports would
regard being strong and slow as much of a benefit. Coaches in most
sports are really interested in developing powerful fast athletes so
that they can run faster, jump higher, and hit harder. Traditional
strength building lifts although useful do not enhance power
development as efficiently as the 'fast lifts' like the power
clean."
Lyn Jones, former national team coach for the United Kingdom, Australia
and the United States.

See also:
http://umanitoba.fitdv.com/new/artic...html?artid=653

I don't care how much John Williams snipes! Google knows ~*ALL*~.

(Or, yeah, it knows someone who does.)

[...]

--
Curt

<xyzer@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1164678423.639408.98230@h54g2000cwb.googlegro ups.com...
> does doing power cleans translate into better on-the-field performance?
> or do you simply get better at doing power cleans?
>
>
> After all, one rule of thumb is that you get good at what you do... as
> in, you bench press, you get good at bench press -- does not mean
> you'll throw a football 15 yards farther thanyou did before you started.

They are probably more applicable than bench pressing, since at least you're
on your feet and doing an explosive type of lift. Hammer Strength makes a
plate loaded Ground Based Jammer, which may be more directly transferable to
football skills. What do the best coaches have to say on the matter?

http://us.commercial.lifefitness.com/content.cfm/jammer

xyzer@hotmail.com wrote:
> does doing power cleans translate into better on-the-field
> performance?

Directly, doubtful. Indirectly, yes.

> or do you simply get better at doing power cleans?

That as well.

>
>
> After all, one rule of thumb is that you get good at what you do... as
> in, you bench press, you get good at bench press -- does not mean
> you'll throw a football 15 yards farther thanyou did before you
> started.

No, hence some smarter coaches focus more on strength than they do on power
in the gym, as there are plenty of power drills that are sports-related that
can be done on the training pitch!

Also, how much time will an athlete spend learning to power clean correctly,
time that could be used elsewhere? How many coaches can coach a power clean
correctly? How much higher is the risk of injury in performing power cleans
than e.g. bench press?


--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

In article <1164678423.639408.98230@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups. com>,
xyzer@hotmail.com wrote:

> does doing power cleans translate into better on-the-field performance?
> or do you simply get better at doing power cleans?
>
>
> After all, one rule of thumb is that you get good at what you do... as
> in, you bench press, you get good at bench press -- does not mean
> you'll throw a football 15 yards farther thanyou did before you started.
>

Specific to vertical jump training and sprint starts. I doubt
quarterbacks are doing them much.

--
Keith

<xyzer@hotmail.com> schreef:

> After all, one rule of thumb is that you get good at what you do... as
> in, you bench press, you get good at bench press -- does not mean
> you'll throw a football 15 yards farther thanyou did before you started.

No, but you can throw a heavier ball to the same distance...

----
Pete

xyzer@hotmail.com wrote:
> does doing power cleans translate into better on-the-field
> performance? or do you simply get better at doing power
cleans?
>
>
> After all, one rule of thumb is that you get good at what you
do...
> as in, you bench press, you get good at bench press -- does
not mean
> you'll throw a football 15 yards farther thanyou did before
you
> started.

I read a coaching/training manual for a major football team a
while back and the coach said he never did power cleans in the
past and he didn't recommend them to his team. He also said he
didn't know anybody that did.

Here's a quote from the Texans' manual:
--------------------------------------------
"Motor learning experts classify skills as "open" or "closed."
Closed skills require the same movement pattern in an unchanging
environment. Examples include a foul shot in basketball, shot
put, golf, diving, and performing a power clean.

Open skills are performed under varying environmental conditions
each time they are executed and require a flexibility of
movement response. Open skills include activities similar to
fielding and throwing a baseball, throwing a football on the
run, tackling an opponent or blocking a defensive lineman.

Skill transfer from task-to-task does not occur according to the
motor-learning experts. A closed skill like the power clean will
not transfer to the many open skills used to play the game of
football. Motor skill transfer studies have been conducted to
determine the transfer of one skill to another. This is called
task-to-task transfer."



K

Kromagnon wrote:
[...]

> I read a coaching/training manual for a major football team a
> while back and the coach said he never did power cleans in the
> past and he didn't recommend them to his team. He also said he
> didn't know anybody that did.
>
> Here's a quote from the Texans' manual:
> --------------------------------------------
> "Motor learning experts classify skills as "open" or "closed."
> Closed skills require the same movement pattern in an unchanging
> environment. Examples include a foul shot in basketball, shot
> put, golf, diving, and performing a power clean.
>
> Open skills are performed under varying environmental conditions
> each time they are executed and require a flexibility of
> movement response. Open skills include activities similar to
> fielding and throwing a baseball, throwing a football on the
> run, tackling an opponent or blocking a defensive lineman.
>
> Skill transfer from task-to-task does not occur according to the
> motor-learning experts. A closed skill like the power clean will
> not transfer to the many open skills used to play the game of
> football. Motor skill transfer studies have been conducted to
> determine the transfer of one skill to another. This is called
> task-to-task transfer."

I trust that's all true, but wonder what the coach would recommend to
anyone starting a new football program. Certainly increased strength
and size is a good thing. A general weight training program instead of
power clean emphasis? Squats wouldn't be ruled out regardless of any
motor skill transfer studies, right?

> K

--
Curt

In article <1oWdnV5IAba2cPHYnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"Kromagnon" <s@b.qqq> wrote:

> xyzer@hotmail.com wrote:
> > does doing power cleans translate into better on-the-field
> > performance? or do you simply get better at doing power
> cleans?
> >
> >
> > After all, one rule of thumb is that you get good at what you
> do...
> > as in, you bench press, you get good at bench press -- does
> not mean
> > you'll throw a football 15 yards farther thanyou did before
> you
> > started.
>
> I read a coaching/training manual for a major football team a
> while back and the coach said he never did power cleans in the
> past and he didn't recommend them to his team. He also said he
> didn't know anybody that did.
>
> Here's a quote from the Texans' manual:
> --------------------------------------------
> "Motor learning experts classify skills as "open" or "closed."
> Closed skills require the same movement pattern in an unchanging
> environment. Examples include a foul shot in basketball, shot
> put, golf, diving, and performing a power clean.
>
> Open skills are performed under varying environmental conditions
> each time they are executed and require a flexibility of
> movement response. Open skills include activities similar to
> fielding and throwing a baseball, throwing a football on the
> run, tackling an opponent or blocking a defensive lineman.
>
> Skill transfer from task-to-task does not occur according to the
> motor-learning experts. A closed skill like the power clean will
> not transfer to the many open skills used to play the game of
> football. Motor skill transfer studies have been conducted to
> determine the transfer of one skill to another. This is called
> task-to-task transfer."

Sorry - I'd have to see the studies because I have seen studies that
indicate skill transfer does occur.

--
Keith

Hobbes wrote:
> In article <1oWdnV5IAba2cPHYnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> "Kromagnon" <s@b.qqq> wrote:
>
>> xyzer@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> does doing power cleans translate into better on-the-field
>>> performance? or do you simply get better at doing power
>> cleans?
>>>
>>>
>>> After all, one rule of thumb is that you get good at what you do...
>>> as in, you bench press, you get good at bench press -- does
>> not mean
>>> you'll throw a football 15 yards farther thanyou did before
>> you
>>> started.
>>
>> I read a coaching/training manual for a major football team a
>> while back and the coach said he never did power cleans in the
>> past and he didn't recommend them to his team. He also said he
>> didn't know anybody that did.
>>
>> Here's a quote from the Texans' manual:
>> --------------------------------------------
>> "Motor learning experts classify skills as "open" or "closed."
>> Closed skills require the same movement pattern in an unchanging
>> environment. Examples include a foul shot in basketball, shot
>> put, golf, diving, and performing a power clean.
>>
>> Open skills are performed under varying environmental conditions
>> each time they are executed and require a flexibility of
>> movement response. Open skills include activities similar to
>> fielding and throwing a baseball, throwing a football on the
>> run, tackling an opponent or blocking a defensive lineman.
>>
>> Skill transfer from task-to-task does not occur according to the
>> motor-learning experts. A closed skill like the power clean will
>> not transfer to the many open skills used to play the game of
>> football. Motor skill transfer studies have been conducted to
>> determine the transfer of one skill to another. This is called
>> task-to-task transfer."
>
> Sorry - I'd have to see the studies because I have seen studies that
> indicate skill transfer does occur.

Yeah, I'd read somewhere that there was some crossover!!!

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Dnia 2006-11-29 Curt napisa³(a):
> Kromagnon wrote:
> [...]
>
>> I read a coaching/training manual for a major football team a
>> while back and the coach said he never did power cleans in the
>> past and he didn't recommend them to his team. He also said he
>> didn't know anybody that did.
>>
>> Here's a quote from the Texans' manual:
>> --------------------------------------------
>> "Motor learning experts classify skills as "open" or "closed."
>> Closed skills require the same movement pattern in an unchanging
>> environment. Examples include a foul shot in basketball, shot
>> put, golf, diving, and performing a power clean.
>>
>> Open skills are performed under varying environmental conditions
>> each time they are executed and require a flexibility of
>> movement response. Open skills include activities similar to
>> fielding and throwing a baseball, throwing a football on the
>> run, tackling an opponent or blocking a defensive lineman.
>>
>> Skill transfer from task-to-task does not occur according to the
>> motor-learning experts. A closed skill like the power clean will
>> not transfer to the many open skills used to play the game of
>> football. Motor skill transfer studies have been conducted to
>> determine the transfer of one skill to another. This is called
>> task-to-task transfer."
>
> I trust that's all true, but wonder what the coach would recommend to
> anyone starting a new football program. Certainly increased strength
> and size is a good thing. A general weight training program instead of
> power clean emphasis?

You seem to assume that power cleans aren't a part of a "general weight
training program". Why?

> Squats wouldn't be ruled out regardless of any
> motor skill transfer studies, right?

Sure. Squats are holy. ;-)

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> Dnia 2006-11-29 Curt napisa³(a):
>> Kromagnon wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>>> I read a coaching/training manual for a major football team a
>>> while back and the coach said he never did power cleans in the
>>> past and he didn't recommend them to his team. He also said he
>>> didn't know anybody that did.
>>>
>>> Here's a quote from the Texans' manual:
>>> --------------------------------------------
>>> "Motor learning experts classify skills as "open" or "closed."
>>> Closed skills require the same movement pattern in an unchanging
>>> environment. Examples include a foul shot in basketball, shot
>>> put, golf, diving, and performing a power clean.
>>>
>>> Open skills are performed under varying environmental conditions
>>> each time they are executed and require a flexibility of
>>> movement response. Open skills include activities similar to
>>> fielding and throwing a baseball, throwing a football on the
>>> run, tackling an opponent or blocking a defensive lineman.
>>>
>>> Skill transfer from task-to-task does not occur according to the
>>> motor-learning experts. A closed skill like the power clean will
>>> not transfer to the many open skills used to play the game of
>>> football. Motor skill transfer studies have been conducted to
>>> determine the transfer of one skill to another. This is called
>>> task-to-task transfer."
>>
>> I trust that's all true, but wonder what the coach would recommend to
>> anyone starting a new football program. Certainly increased strength
>> and size is a good thing. A general weight training program instead
>> of power clean emphasis?
>
> You seem to assume that power cleans aren't a part of a "general
> weight training program". Why?

Because they are VERY difficult to coach. When you have a squad of 30
part-time players & you are coaching part-time you will do well to be able
to teach 10 of them how to deadlift correctly, let along how to power clean
!!!

>
>> Squats wouldn't be ruled out regardless of any
>> motor skill transfer studies, right?
>
> Sure. Squats are holy. ;-)

Squats of Truth.

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Dnia 2006-11-29 Bully napisa³(a):
> Andrzej Rosa wrote:
>> Dnia 2006-11-29 Curt napisa³(a):
[...]
>>>
>>> I trust that's all true, but wonder what the coach would recommend to
>>> anyone starting a new football program. Certainly increased strength
>>> and size is a good thing. A general weight training program instead
>>> of power clean emphasis?
>>
>> You seem to assume that power cleans aren't a part of a "general
>> weight training program". Why?
>
> Because they are VERY difficult to coach. When you have a squad of 30
> part-time players & you are coaching part-time you will do well to be able
> to teach 10 of them how to deadlift correctly, let along how to power clean
> !!!

I see. Well, I have *no* experience in coaching groups, but I remember
reading that Dan John likes power curls, one-armed if hard pressed, and
Mike Boyle likes hang cleans.

Hang cleans can easily look ugly, because people seem to learn quick
that by swinging the bar with their knees they can move more weight, but
Boyle insists that it's all OK. I've even shown one clip of his female
athletes doing very ugly hang cleans, but taking in account that Boyle
is a testing junkie, I'd take into consideration his opinion about the
value of such bastardised hang cleans. They seem to be safer then full
cleans too.

Oh, once I'm at it. Boyle likes clean grip snatches. He has very low
injury rates, AFAIK.

>>> Squats wouldn't be ruled out regardless of any
>>> motor skill transfer studies, right?
>>
>> Sure. Squats are holy. ;-)
>
> Squats of Truth.

Let's be honest, they are often closer to Partials of Truth. ;-)

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> Dnia 2006-11-29 Bully napisa³(a):
>> Andrzej Rosa wrote:
>>> Dnia 2006-11-29 Curt napisa³(a):
> [...]
>>>>
>>>> I trust that's all true, but wonder what the coach would recommend
>>>> to anyone starting a new football program. Certainly increased
>>>> strength and size is a good thing. A general weight training
>>>> program instead of power clean emphasis?
>>>
>>> You seem to assume that power cleans aren't a part of a "general
>>> weight training program". Why?
>>
>> Because they are VERY difficult to coach. When you have a squad of 30
>> part-time players & you are coaching part-time you will do well to
>> be able to teach 10 of them how to deadlift correctly, let along how
>> to power clean !!!
>
> I see. Well, I have *no* experience in coaching groups, but I
> remember reading that Dan John likes power curls, one-armed if hard
> pressed, and Mike Boyle likes hang cleans.
>
> Hang cleans can easily look ugly, because people seem to learn quick
> that by swinging the bar with their knees they can move more weight,
> but Boyle insists that it's all OK. I've even shown one clip of his
> female athletes doing very ugly hang cleans, but taking in account
> that Boyle is a testing junkie, I'd take into consideration his
> opinion about the value of such bastardised hang cleans. They seem
> to be safer then full cleans too.
>
> Oh, once I'm at it. Boyle likes clean grip snatches. He has very low
> injury rates, AFAIK.
>
>>>> Squats wouldn't be ruled out regardless of any
>>>> motor skill transfer studies, right?
>>>
>>> Sure. Squats are holy. ;-)
>>
>> Squats of Truth.
>
> Let's be honest, they are often closer to Partials of Truth. ;-)

Not mine, baby!!!

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> Dnia 2006-11-29 Curt napisa³(a):
> > Kromagnon wrote:
> > [...]
> >
> >> I read a coaching/training manual for a major football team a
> >> while back and the coach said he never did power cleans in the
> >> past and he didn't recommend them to his team. He also said he
> >> didn't know anybody that did.
> >>
> >> Here's a quote from the Texans' manual:
> >> --------------------------------------------
> >> "Motor learning experts classify skills as "open" or "closed."
> >> Closed skills require the same movement pattern in an unchanging
> >> environment. Examples include a foul shot in basketball, shot
> >> put, golf, diving, and performing a power clean.
> >>
> >> Open skills are performed under varying environmental conditions
> >> each time they are executed and require a flexibility of
> >> movement response. Open skills include activities similar to
> >> fielding and throwing a baseball, throwing a football on the
> >> run, tackling an opponent or blocking a defensive lineman.
> >>
> >> Skill transfer from task-to-task does not occur according to the
> >> motor-learning experts. A closed skill like the power clean will
> >> not transfer to the many open skills used to play the game of
> >> football. Motor skill transfer studies have been conducted to
> >> determine the transfer of one skill to another. This is called
> >> task-to-task transfer."
> >
> > I trust that's all true, but wonder what the coach would recommend to
> > anyone starting a new football program. Certainly increased strength
> > and size is a good thing. A general weight training program instead of
> > power clean emphasis?
>
> You seem to assume that power cleans aren't a part of a "general weight
> training program".

And how would you have phrased the question?

There is - by my way of thinking - no ONE "general weight training
program," however for the sake of discussion and in the context of "why
do football players do power cleans?" versus WHAT or _Either vs. Or_, I
chose to phrase it as Either being a power clean emphasis and the Or
being the unspecified "general weight training program."

Of course a program could include a variety of exercises.

Again, how would you have phrased the question?

> Why?

Because you assumed incorrectly.

Seriously, there is no why as I wouldn't necessarily exclude power
cleans from a weight training program.

Still, the power clean is in question here. Some coaches prefer it
while other coaches give it the nix. Given a coach's lack of interest
in the power clean, what would that imaginary, hypothetical coach
substitute?

Certainly there are no coaches around who do not use weights in their
programs, right? *Maybe* the 6-year-old football league.

> > Squats wouldn't be ruled out regardless of any
> > motor skill transfer studies, right?
>
> Sure. Squats are holy. ;-)

Agreed. Squats are holy!

> Andrzej Rosa 1127R

--
Curt

Dnia 2006-12-01 Curt napisa³(a):
> Andrzej Rosa wrote:
>>
>> You seem to assume that power cleans aren't a part of a "general weight
>> training program".
>
> And how would you have phrased the question?
>
> There is - by my way of thinking - no ONE "general weight training
> program," however for the sake of discussion and in the context of "why
> do football players do power cleans?" versus WHAT or _Either vs. Or_, I
> chose to phrase it as Either being a power clean emphasis and the Or
> being the unspecified "general weight training program."
>
> Of course a program could include a variety of exercises.
>
> Again, how would you have phrased the question?
>
>> Why?
>
> Because you assumed incorrectly.
>
> Seriously, there is no why as I wouldn't necessarily exclude power
> cleans from a weight training program.

That was my way of thinking.

> Still, the power clean is in question here. Some coaches prefer it
> while other coaches give it the nix. Given a coach's lack of interest
> in the power clean, what would that imaginary, hypothetical coach
> substitute?
>
> Certainly there are no coaches around who do not use weights in their
> programs, right? *Maybe* the 6-year-old football league.
>
>> > Squats wouldn't be ruled out regardless of any
>> > motor skill transfer studies, right?
>>
>> Sure. Squats are holy. ;-)
>
> Agreed. Squats are holy!

Yes. They build wonderful arms. Due to that they are so coveted by
rock climbers.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> Dnia 2006-12-01 Curt napisa³(a):
[...]

> > Agreed. Squats are holy!
>
> Yes. They build wonderful arms.

Actually, if you believe the old school trainers (Bradley J. Steiner
for one), they do. I know I've read - perhaps it was Steiner or it
might've been the 20-rep squat guy - that to gain an inch on your arm
you'll need to gain between 10 to 15 pounds of body weight. Squats and
milk (or deadlifts and milk - where IS Jason Earl, btw?) are one almost
surefire way to gain that body weight and, hence, the aforementioend
"wonderful arms.".

> Due to that they are so coveted by rock
> climbers.

Whatever, goober! ;o)

> Andrzej Rosa 1127R

--
Curt

Dnia 2006-12-01 Curt napisa³(a):
> Andrzej Rosa wrote:
>> Dnia 2006-12-01 Curt napisa³(a):
> [...]
>
>> > Agreed. Squats are holy!
>>
>> Yes. They build wonderful arms.
>
> Actually, if you believe the old school trainers (Bradley J. Steiner
> for one), they do. I know I've read - perhaps it was Steiner or it
> might've been the 20-rep squat guy - that to gain an inch on your arm
> you'll need to gain between 10 to 15 pounds of body weight.

So that's why some newbies on bench and curl routine can outcurl much
bigger guys on squat dead and bench routine. Good to know.

> Squats and
> milk (or deadlifts and milk - where IS Jason Earl, btw?) are one almost
> surefire way to gain that body weight and, hence, the aforementioend
> "wonderful arms.".

Show me one even remotely successful bodybuilder who doesn't curl.
Show yourself legions of those who didn't deadlift regularly, yet
managed to gain both weight and big arms.

If some exercise doesn't take you closer to your goal, it's an enemy
and should be treated as such.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> Dnia 2006-12-01 Curt napisa³(a):
> > Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> >> Dnia 2006-12-01 Curt napisa³(a):
> > [...]
> >
> >> > Agreed. Squats are holy!
> >>
> >> Yes. They build wonderful arms.
> >
> > Actually, if you believe the old school trainers (Bradley J. Steiner
> > for one), they do. I know I've read - perhaps it was Steiner or it
> > might've been the 20-rep squat guy - that to gain an inch on your arm
> > you'll need to gain between 10 to 15 pounds of body weight.
>
> So that's why some newbies on bench and curl routine can outcurl much
> bigger guys on squat dead and bench routine.

As Bully might say, "S-T-E-R-I-O-D-S," of course.

Or steroids. Meh.

> Good to know.
>
> > Squats and
> > milk (or deadlifts and milk - where IS Jason Earl, btw?) are one almost
> > surefire way to gain that body weight and, hence, the aforementioend
> > "wonderful arms.".
>
> Show me one even remotely successful bodybuilder who doesn't curl.

Wow, you really *aren't* in the mood. The conversation started with
power cleans, veered to squats, and then to your joke (I'm assuming,
but, hey, could be wrong) re arms and my reply that, yes, squats have
been said to help build big arms.

I wasn't talking about Sergio or anyone competing at or near that level
today.

Again, the original conversation was about football players. Not really
an IFBB-specific sport.

My comment re 10 - 15 pounds of body weight resulting in, perhaps, an
inch increase in size was made with no connection to a bodybuilder's
peaked, vascular biceps or well-defined yet massive triceps.

> Show yourself legions of those who didn't deadlift regularly, yet
> managed to gain both weight and big arms.

Wrist curls and deltoid raises? Okay.

[...]

> Andrzej Rosa 1127R

--
Curt

Dnia 2006-12-01 Curt napisa³(a):
> Andrzej Rosa wrote:
>> Dnia 2006-12-01 Curt napisa³(a):
>> > Andrzej Rosa wrote:
>> >> Dnia 2006-12-01 Curt napisa³(a):
>> > [...]
>> >
>> >> > Agreed. Squats are holy!
>> >>
>> >> Yes. They build wonderful arms.
>> >
>> > Actually, if you believe the old school trainers (Bradley J. Steiner
>> > for one), they do. I know I've read - perhaps it was Steiner or it
>> > might've been the 20-rep squat guy - that to gain an inch on your arm
>> > you'll need to gain between 10 to 15 pounds of body weight.
>>
>> So that's why some newbies on bench and curl routine can outcurl much
>> bigger guys on squat dead and bench routine.
>
> As Bully might say, "S-T-E-R-I-O-D-S," of course.
>
> Or steroids. Meh.

Stereotypes. Not every deadlifter is on something. ;-)

And seriously, I was beaten in arm wrestling by people I'd destroy in a
three lift meat. They did curls and had bigger biceps than me.

>> Good to know.
>>
>> > Squats and
>> > milk (or deadlifts and milk - where IS Jason Earl, btw?) are one almost
>> > surefire way to gain that body weight and, hence, the aforementioend
>> > "wonderful arms.".
>>
>> Show me one even remotely successful bodybuilder who doesn't curl.
>
> Wow, you really *aren't* in the mood. The conversation started with
> power cleans, veered to squats, and then to your joke (I'm assuming,
> but, hey, could be wrong) re arms and my reply that, yes, squats have
> been said to help build big arms.
>
> I wasn't talking about Sergio or anyone competing at or near that level
> today.
>
> Again, the original conversation was about football players. Not really
> an IFBB-specific sport.
>
> My comment re 10 - 15 pounds of body weight resulting in, perhaps, an
> inch increase in size was made with no connection to a bodybuilder's
> peaked, vascular biceps or well-defined yet massive triceps.

Am I supposed to get something out of it? I don't.

Anyway, my point is that goals dictate program. You want athletic
performance, you prioritize legs. You want appearance, you prioritize
upper body. Squats do not prioritize upper body.

>> Show yourself legions of those who didn't deadlift regularly, yet
>> managed to gain both weight and big arms.
>
> Wrist curls and deltoid raises? Okay.

OK. I don't train arms. I don't train raises. I learned who was
Sergio Oliva a few weeks ago.

Do you see logic in it? I don't care much for bodybuilding so I don't
do much bodybuilding. If I cared for looks more I'd do what it takes
to get better looks more.

Now, you care for bodybuilding and looks, yet you train like guys who do
not. Where is logic in it?

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> Dnia 2006-12-01 Curt napisa³(a):
> > Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> >> Dnia 2006-12-01 Curt napisa³(a):
> >> > Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> >> >> Dnia 2006-12-01 Curt napisa³(a):
> >> > [...]
> >> >
> >> >> > Agreed. Squats are holy!
> >> >>
> >> >> Yes. They build wonderful arms.
> >> >
> >> > Actually, if you believe the old school trainers (Bradley J. Steiner
> >> > for one), they do. I know I've read - perhaps it was Steiner or it
> >> > might've been the 20-rep squat guy - that to gain an inch on your arm
> >> > you'll need to gain between 10 to 15 pounds of body weight.
> >>
> >> So that's why some newbies on bench and curl routine can outcurl much
> >> bigger guys on squat dead and bench routine.
> >
> > As Bully might say, "S-T-E-R-I-O-D-S," of course.
> >
> > Or steroids. Meh.
>
> Stereotypes. Not every deadlifter is on something. ;-)

There may just be the slightest language barrier here or ascii wink and
smile notwithstanding a stone-cold-no-sense-of-humor barrier.

> And seriously, I was beaten in arm wrestling by people I'd destroy in a
> three lift meat. They did curls and had bigger biceps than me.

Bigger biceps aren't necessarily the prime factors in arm wrestling
success. Speed, wrist and forearm strength trumps a swoled up bicep.

> >> Good to know.
> >>
> >> > Squats and
> >> > milk (or deadlifts and milk - where IS Jason Earl, btw?) are one almost
> >> > surefire way to gain that body weight and, hence, the aforementioend
> >> > "wonderful arms.".
> >>
> >> Show me one even remotely successful bodybuilder who doesn't curl.
> >
> > Wow, you really *aren't* in the mood. The conversation started with
> > power cleans, veered to squats, and then to your joke (I'm assuming,
> > but, hey, could be wrong) re arms and my reply that, yes, squats have
> > been said to help build big arms.
> >
> > I wasn't talking about Sergio or anyone competing at or near that level
> > today.
> >
> > Again, the original conversation was about football players. Not really
> > an IFBB-specific sport.
> >
> > My comment re 10 - 15 pounds of body weight resulting in, perhaps, an
> > inch increase in size was made with no connection to a bodybuilder's
> > peaked, vascular biceps or well-defined yet massive triceps.
>
> Am I supposed to get something out of it? I don't.

An indication, perhaps, that you're missing my point at every
opportunity.

I posted to SM a brief congratulations.

I posted to ephedralover a brief "Hey, rain on parades much?"

And then you started talking about what you're talking about. Dump
queries.

Okay.

> Anyway, my point is that goals dictate program. You want athletic
> performance, you prioritize legs. You want appearance, you prioritize
> upper body. Squats do not prioritize upper body.

Opinion.

> >> Show yourself legions of those who didn't deadlift regularly, yet
> >> managed to gain both weight and big arms.
> >
> > Wrist curls and deltoid raises? Okay.
>
> OK. I don't train arms. I don't train raises. I learned who was
> Sergio Oliva a few weeks ago.

Okay.

> Do you see logic in it? I don't care much for bodybuilding so I don't
> do much bodybuilding. If I cared for looks more I'd do what it takes
> to get better looks more.
>
> Now, you care for bodybuilding and looks, yet you train like guys who do
> not. Where is logic in it?

For me there is no difference.

> Andrzej Rosa 1127R

--
Curt

Dnia 2006-12-01 Curt napisa³(a):
> Andrzej Rosa wrote:
>> Dnia 2006-12-01 Curt napisa³(a):
>> >> So that's why some newbies on bench and curl routine can outcurl much
>> >> bigger guys on squat dead and bench routine.
>> >
>> > As Bully might say, "S-T-E-R-I-O-D-S," of course.
>> >
>> > Or steroids. Meh.
>>
>> Stereotypes. Not every deadlifter is on something. ;-)
>
> There may just be the slightest language barrier here or ascii wink and
> smile notwithstanding a stone-cold-no-sense-of-humor barrier.

All right. I'll explain all my jokes here and stop joking.

First. I ask you about your shit, which makes me kinky gay, by
definition, so I find it funny and bring it forward.

Second. I say that I'll fuck all that moves if I'm in the mood, and
you say that you "duck and run". So I say that there is no danger
for you, because maybe I exaggerated a bit, and even if not, I'm not in
"the mood".

Third. You say that steroids are responsible for the fact that newbie
can outcurl a powerlifter, which I find funny, because a powerlifter
IMHO has a better chance to be on than newbie. Taking in account that
almost no one deadlifts in a typical gym beside some powerlifters,
almost every deadlifter would be some sort of a powerlifter, which means
someone who has better chance to be on than newbie.

I hate explaining jokes, so I'll stop joking.

>> And seriously, I was beaten in arm wrestling by people I'd destroy in a
>> three lift meat. They did curls and had bigger biceps than me.
>
> Bigger biceps aren't necessarily the prime factors in arm wrestling
> success. Speed, wrist and forearm strength trumps a swoled up bicep.

I know. I can win arm wrestling match until a guy has much stronger
arms than me. They did have much stronger arms.

>> > Wow, you really *aren't* in the mood. The conversation started with
>> > power cleans, veered to squats, and then to your joke (I'm assuming,
>> > but, hey, could be wrong) re arms and my reply that, yes, squats have
>> > been said to help build big arms.
>> >
>> > I wasn't talking about Sergio or anyone competing at or near that level
>> > today.
>> >
>> > Again, the original conversation was about football players. Not really
>> > an IFBB-specific sport.
>> >
>> > My comment re 10 - 15 pounds of body weight resulting in, perhaps, an
>> > inch increase in size was made with no connection to a bodybuilder's
>> > peaked, vascular biceps or well-defined yet massive triceps.
>>
>> Am I supposed to get something out of it? I don't.
>
> An indication, perhaps, that you're missing my point at every
> opportunity.
>
> I posted to SM a brief congratulations.

Alluding again to how poor your "genetics" is.

> I posted to ephedralover a brief "Hey, rain on parades much?"
>
> And then you started talking about what you're talking about. Dump
> queries.

If you don't eat enough, you have no reason to complain about genetics.

> Okay.
>
>> Anyway, my point is that goals dictate program. You want athletic
>> performance, you prioritize legs. You want appearance, you prioritize
>> upper body. Squats do not prioritize upper body.
>
> Opinion.

Opinion? You think that squats prioritize upper body or that upper
body appearance is less important than lower body? Or both, maybe?

>> >> Show yourself legions of those who didn't deadlift regularly, yet
>> >> managed to gain both weight and big arms.
>> >
>> > Wrist curls and deltoid raises? Okay.
>>
>> OK. I don't train arms. I don't train raises. I learned who was
>> Sergio Oliva a few weeks ago.
>
> Okay.

You see. I don't care about details and concentrate on what matters.
If I was into bodybuilding I'd concentrate on arm work and shoulder
width.

>> Do you see logic in it? I don't care much for bodybuilding so I don't
>> do much bodybuilding. If I cared for looks more I'd do what it takes
>> to get better looks more.
>>
>> Now, you care for bodybuilding and looks, yet you train like guys who do
>> not. Where is logic in it?
>
> For me there is no difference.

OK. Both guys below deadlift 480 lbs. Guess which one is a bodybuilder.

http://www.t-nation.com/forum_images...-1DSCN1927.jpg
http://www.t-nation.com/forum_images...se1_081506.jpg

BTW - there is over 100 lbs of body mass difference between them.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

"Andrzej Rosa" <bakters@yahoo.com> schreef:

> Show me one even remotely successful bodybuilder who doesn't curl.
> Show yourself legions of those who didn't deadlift regularly, yet
> managed to gain both weight and big arms.

This is correct.

You dont need deadlifts to gain weight. Or squats for that matter.
I gained 30 kilo by doing mostly upper body exercises. I did calf raises
though...
Sometimes some SLDLs.

----
Pete

Andrzej Rosa wrote:
[...]

> All right. I'll explain all my jokes here and stop joking.

-=snip the explanations because, hey, if you have to 'splain a
joke...=-

> Third. You say that steroids are responsible for the fact that newbie
> can outcurl a powerlifter, which I find funny, because a powerlifter
> IMHO has a better chance to be on than newbie. Taking in account that
> almost no one deadlifts in a typical gym beside some powerlifters,
> almost every deadlifter would be some sort of a powerlifter, which means
> someone who has better chance to be on than newbie.

Like I said, if you have to explain a joke, but there's no harm in
STATING that, yeah, "S-T-E-R-I-O-D-S" was a joke.

> I hate explaining jokes, so I'll stop joking.

[...]

> Alluding again to how poor your "genetics" is.

Alluding nothing. I complimented the OP on his achievement and how that
offers hope to the sub-225 benchers. You're the one who began your
uninvited genetics lectures.

[...]

> If you don't eat enough, you have no reason to complain about genetics.

Again, "complain" is your word.

[...]

> Opinion? You think that squats prioritize upper body or that upper
> body appearance is less important than lower body? Or both, maybe?

Ask the ladies which is more important. ;o)

(ba dump bump)

re another joke: "Wrist curls and deltoid raises?"

> You see. I don't care about details and concentrate on what matters.

On what matters TO YOU.

> If I was into bodybuilding I'd concentrate on arm work and shoulder
> width.

Okay.

[...]

> OK. Both guys below deadlift 480 lbs. Guess which one is a bodybuilder.
>
> http://www.t-nation.com/forum_images...-1DSCN1927.jpg
> http://www.t-nation.com/forum_images...se1_081506.jpg
>
> BTW - there is over 100 lbs of body mass difference between them.

Johnny Jackson.

http://www.flexonline.com/news/144

But, hey, I imagine you never hearda him either.

> Andrzej Rosa 1127R

--
Curt

Pete wrote:
[...]

> You dont need deadlifts to gain weight.
> Or squats for that matter.
> I gained 30 kilo by doing mostly upper
> body exercises. I did calf raises though...
> Sometimes some SLDLs.

As always, I trust that what you say is gospel, Pete, however I also
know - from my experience - that the thirty pounds I put on (150 lbs to
180 lbs) as a newbie lifter came primarily from squats and the
resulting muscle gain in my quads and hips. No doubt.

There are lifters who respond to bench and there are lifters who
respond to squats and/or deads.

I worked (and work) hella hard on upper body just as I did on legs,
however my stretch marks are on my quads and hips and not my delt-pec
which is the (I'm guessing) typical area for lifters to realize stretch
marks.

So, while I agree that you don't necessarily need deads to gain weight,
I suggest that some will gain more muscle from leg work than they will
from bench.

By way of example of "uneven" muscle fiber distribution, perhaps, note
bodybuilders who have phenomenal arms but terrible legs while working
legs just as hard as arms. Likewise you have guys with tremendous legs
and not so spectacular arms or chest.

I'm sure you can think of at least one example of those type of
bodybuilders.

This, however, is NOT to be considered a complaint about my particular
genetics (or lack of food) but rather general commentary/discussion
attempt.

--
Curt

Dnia 2006-12-01 Curt napisa³(a):
> Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> [...]
>
>> All right. I'll explain all my jokes here and stop joking.
>
> -=snip the explanations because, hey, if you have to 'splain a
> joke...=-
>
>> Third. You say that steroids are responsible for the fact that newbie
>> can outcurl a powerlifter, which I find funny, because a powerlifter
>> IMHO has a better chance to be on than newbie. Taking in account that
>> almost no one deadlifts in a typical gym beside some powerlifters,
>> almost every deadlifter would be some sort of a powerlifter, which means
>> someone who has better chance to be on than newbie.
>
> Like I said, if you have to explain a joke, but there's no harm in
> STATING that, yeah, "S-T-E-R-I-O-D-S" was a joke.

So, what does it mean if you have to explain a joke?

>> If you don't eat enough, you have no reason to complain about genetics.
>
> Again, "complain" is your word.

Self deprecating humour is yours, but people can confuse those two terms.

>> Opinion? You think that squats prioritize upper body or that upper
>> body appearance is less important than lower body? Or both, maybe?
>
> Ask the ladies which is more important. ;o)

Why should I ask them? Women never tell the truth, until by complete
accident. It's better to see what works and what doesn't.

> (ba dump bump)
>
> re another joke: "Wrist curls and deltoid raises?"

Wrist curls I do get, but deltoid raises is not my style. Everyone is
different, it seems.

>> You see. I don't care about details and concentrate on what matters.
>
> On what matters TO YOU.

Reaching my goal. Whatever unimportant thing it might be, it becomes
important once I decide to reach it.

>> If I was into bodybuilding I'd concentrate on arm work and shoulder
>> width.
>
> Okay.

And I'd get results, too.

>> OK. Both guys below deadlift 480 lbs. Guess which one is a bodybuilder.
>>
>> http://www.t-nation.com/forum_images...-1DSCN1927.jpg
>> http://www.t-nation.com/forum_images...se1_081506.jpg
>>
>> BTW - there is over 100 lbs of body mass difference between them.
>
> Johnny Jackson.
>
> http://www.flexonline.com/news/144
>
> But, hey, I imagine you never hearda him either.

No, I didn't. Yet if I decided to look big, I'd look big(gish).
Bigger than now, that's for sure.

BTW - did you check my links? If not, one guy looks like a monster who
is "barely" able to deadlift 480 lbs. The other one looks like a
weakling, who is surprisingly able to move some big weights. Deadlift
didn't make him, or his arms, especially big. No sir.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> Dnia 2006-12-01 Curt napisa³(a):
> > Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> > [...]
> >
> >> All right. I'll explain all my jokes here and stop joking.
> >
> > -=snip the explanations because, hey, if you have to 'splain a
> > joke...=-
[...]

> So, what does it mean if you have to explain a joke?

On the grand scale? Nothing, especially. Otoh, it could, however
actually mean a) your joke was funny, but the audience was juuuust not
quick enough, b) your joke stank to high heaven, c) other

I'm all about the options.

[...]

> > Again, "complain" is your word.
>
> Self deprecating humour is yours,

Touché.

> but people can confuse those two terms.

Absolutely. And, yes, agreed. Fwiw, you're okay in my book, Andrzej.

[...]

> > Ask the ladies which is more important. ;o)
>
> Why should I ask them? Women never tell the truth,
> until by complete accident.

ahahahHAHA! )

> It's better to see what works and what doesn't.

Agreed on that point as well.

[...]

> >> If I was into bodybuilding I'd concentrate on
> >> arm work and shoulder width.
> >
> > Okay.
>
> And I'd get results, too.

Bastard!

> >> OK. Both guys below deadlift 480 lbs. Guess which one is a bodybuilder.
> >>
> >> http://www.t-nation.com/forum_images...-1DSCN1927.jpg
> >> http://www.t-nation.com/forum_images...se1_081506.jpg
> >>
> >> BTW - there is over 100 lbs of body mass difference between them.
> >
> > Johnny Jackson.
> >
> > http://www.flexonline.com/news/144
> >
> > But, hey, I imagine you never hearda him either.
>
> No, I didn't.

And you never will. (Because I spelled his name wrong.) It's actually
Johnnie Jackson and, iirc, he has an "offishul" 800-plus deadlift to
his credit and that link above noted his bodybuilding contest win.

> Yet if I decided to look big, I'd look big(gish).
> Bigger than now, that's for sure.

Maybe or maybe not. Have you ever been "big(gish)"?

> BTW - did you check my links?

I just did. T-Nation rocks, imo.

> If not, one guy looks like a monster who
> is "barely" able to deadlift 480 lbs.

Still, 480 is not chicken scratch. My motorcycle's dry weight is about
that. Ever try lifting a Harley completely off the ground?

> The other one looks like a weakling, who is surprisingly

Why surprisingly. Plenty of skinny guys have mightymighty tendons of
steel.

>able to move some big weights.

Regardless, I'd rather LOOK like I can move a mountain and "only" be
able to move a tank versus looking like I couldn't lift a penc